Fewer than if they did all the wrong things. That’s not blaming the victim; it is the recognition of an obvious reality.
Fathers are always put in that position. That is one of the things that fathers are for. Some fathers abandon this responsibility, or carry it out badly. Such people should be condemned. A man who shirks his responsibilities towards his children is not a man.
Absolutely correct. Much of the time, fathers are abandoning their responsibilities towards their children. We need to do much more in this society to promote healthy, two-parent families.
This is a strawman - no one in this thread has said anything remotely similar to "boys will be boys’.
This case does not involve a woman. Eleven year old children can be pretty stupid, though. That’s why adults have to be responsible for them, to teach them how to behave, and to keep an eye out when they are running into danger. No one seems to have done that for this girl. Is that her fault? Of course not - she is eleven years old, and is not responsible for herself.
I think a curfew for the eleven year old would have been a great idea. Don’t you?
AT 11, I was an accomplished shoplifter. I had also avoided being assaulted many times and on a few occasions ran the old badger sting on potential molesters quite successfully. So, yes 11 year olds are quite capable of being responsible for their actions and many have the kind of tools it takes to handle such situations. However, this one did not and her adult caregivers should be chastised for not teaching the child about dangerous situations and dangerous people. While reading over the comments made by the townspeople about how the girl looked (i.e., that she looked older), it has occurred that some of them may not be intended as blaming the victim because of her appearance, but attempts to claim that because she looked older some of the accused may have thought she was old enough to consent to sex. Some of the accused are teenage boys. While an 11 year old with a 16 year old is definitely creepy, many people do not find a 14 year old (and there is a thread in IMHO now in which a poster discusses happily and consentually having sex at 14) with a 16 year old. The real issue in some of these cases may not be age, but whether or not they had reason to believe consent.
Why not? Rape is a crime. Crime avoidance is common fucking sense.
You know why so many women submit while being raped? Because they’re afraid of being killed.
Is getting killed worse than rape? Don’t answer. I know your answer. For most women though, not getting killed is pretty important. There are worse things than being raped. Oh there I go excusing rapists and blaming victims again. Whatever.
Quit conflating women with 11-year-old children. I hate that. If a WOMAN wants to put on her fuck me outfit, get drunk and pass out in a back alley in the middle of Rape City that’s her gig. Quit fucking telling children they should wear fuck me clothes, get drunk in dark alleys alone and hang around with gangs of guys because they’re WOMEN and should. How on this whole blue green fucking Earth does that make a lick of sense? It’s criminally irresponsible advice, that’s what it is.
There are plenty of them in my neighborhood and they were not sold into slavery. They live at home with incompetent parents. Their guidance counselors try not to call it prostitution, but what else is really when 5th and 6th graders are performing oral sex on slightly older boys in exchange for clothes and teenage babbles. I have a nagging suspicion that the girl in the Cleveland case may have started her sexual activity in just such a scenario.
They are exploited and sexually enslaved by their parents. They are not prostitutes. That word implies some kind of implied choice or consent. You’re talking about plain old child rape.
Isn’t “running a train” a ghetto term? When slang terms for highly specific concepts arise - like “baby daddy” - I think that’s generally an indication of the concept being common enough in that community that they have slang for it.
Look, I don’t doubt that white people use the term too. But I think it originated in the ghetto. 25 years ago there were still ghettos. Actually, 25 years ago was around the time when a lot of black urban slang started drifting into the mainstream.
If you don’t know the difference between ‘running a train’ and a gang rape, then we are going to have to start at the beginning, Argent. Also, what does ‘baby daddy’ have to do with gang rape?
I find your quote strange. I am readily admitting (and there really is no denying) that the ghetto is rife with crime and troubles. But gang rape isn’t one of the big problems we have to tussle with, ususally. I am honestly baffled as to how you feel ‘baby daddy’ has a thing to do with gang rape.
I totally agree that characterizing it as a ‘relationship’ is offensive; that’s why I put the term in quotation marks in my post. Obviously, it could not, in any way, have been a consensual relationship. That was kind of my point. It wasn’t consensual any more than my situation was.
That’s absolutely not what I meant. What I meant was that I find it very sad that at no point did she seem to get the message that this kind of contact is not OK, and that if you report it to an adult, the adult will do something to help. The 11YO is in no way at fault here. All I’m saying is that, per your own post, she was sexually abused, probably not for the first time, which indicates she had no one to go to that would help her; or she didn’t know who to go to. Responsible parents cannot make sure their children are never abused or assaulted. What responsible parents can do is to make sure that their children know who they can go to, safely, if there is an issue of assault or abuse.
My point is that, yes, the rape lays squarely on the shoulders of the rapists. But there is some kind of other failing going on here if this child either didn’t have anyone reliable to go to after the first incident or didn’t know she had someone to go to.
Obviously, this is a topic close to my heart and my emotions. But I am taking my daughter out of town for a bowling tournament this weekend, so I’m not sure when I’ll be able to check back in.
Meantime, my thoughts will be with this poor child, and no, my sympathies will not be with the perpetrators of this crime!
Well, I don’t think I ever said “ghetto.” But, the first article I saw mentioned gangs and that abandoned place the whole neighborhood called “the Quarters” so it sounded like a pretty poor neighborhood.
Now I’ve heard different things like “star of the basketball team” and “school board member’s son” and don’t really know what to think.
Seems to me that the ultimate goal of “running a train” is so that multiple men can each achieve penetration/orgasm without all having to go to the trouble of each finding different sexual partners. It’s a utilitarian, un-emotional form of group sex.
A gang rape is this same thing, but with an unwilling partner.
The difference is clear to me. But the similarities are also clear to me.
There are as many variations as people working the game. It’s basically blackmailing someone for lusting after an underage person (usually a girl) or and individual whom a sexual relationship or the hint of a sexual relationship would cause a scandal for the mark. The mark has to be financially secure enough to be worth the effort, not so financially secure they can easily avoid a scandal and possible arrest. Before the the media revolution it was much harder and considerably more dangerous because of the nature of the evidence needed (usually love letters indicating clear intent at the least). Now every idiot has a digital camera and no brains about using them.
Half the time their parents have no idea what’s going on. Myself, I would wonder where my daughter always had the latest teen fads, but some people don’t (or they are willfilly blind).
I think the problem a lot of people are having with the argument people like you and me want to make comes in that, in an ideal world, a little 11 year old girl should be able to skip through downtown at 11PM naked and not have anybody think nary a sexual thought much less touch her. No boy should be content to rape, and if, somehow in our ideal world, this did occur, his peers would report it immediately (and same for any permutation of the above genders). Sure, if the parents of 11 year old girls were gods and could alter the parenting structures of everybody in their community, that would be great, perfect solution, no need to teach little girls anything because crimes won’t happen. Problem solved.
The big issue with this scenario is that, well, we don’t live in that world, and parents of little girls have control over the habits and lifestyle of exactly one little girl, not all the boys that could possibly come in contact with her. Little girls do need to be taught to be brave, to not dress provocatively until they’re older, and to not hang out with 19 year old boys if said 19 year old boys violate the no uncomfortable touching rule (or don’t hang out with older boys at all). It’s unfortunate that they need to be taught this, yes, but there exist people who will take advantage of little tiny excuses such as revealing clothing to do something inexcusable. Now, this is a mitigation factor, there will still be rapes, even if every little girl is perfectly instructed in how to mitigate tragic scenarios. Even in our ideal world above, you have to factor in the particularly sociopathic boys that won’t listen to their parent’s sage advice about not raping. This is where stage 2 comes in: girls need to be taught to TELL SOMEONE and to KEEP telling someone if the first few someones don’t believe you. Yes, this little girl was coerced, even if she was dressing age-appropriately and hanging out with all the right people she may have been coerced into sexual contact, but afterwards she needed to tell her parents or call the police. Mitigating factors aren’t enough, you have to prepare for the child that the possiblity that the world will roll the dice and you’ll be chosen as the unlucky loser, and if such a terrible thing should occur, what you need to do if it happens. This little girl didn’t know this, and kept letting it happen, first with the 19 year old, and then with the myriad of other people. It only came under scrutiny when another person ENTIRELY came across the video by chance and reported it.
That’s the sticker her, she should NOT have been raped, even if in the real world she can’t run around naked at 11AM and not be raped it still SHOULDN’T happen. In the event she’s raped, for any reason, she needs to be taught to tell somebody. She, personally, did nothing wrong except be ignorant. And doing something wrong is completely, totally different from being at fault, the people who are at fault are the people who did this, the people who didn’t report this, and the people who didn’t cure her of her ignorance. She is a victim, but her incorrect action in this scenario is a result of further victimization, not some misguided attempt to blame her for her problems.
Personally, I think saying an 11 year old having an ongoing sexual relationship with a 19 year old sort of entails abuse, without any change in terminology or addition of scare quotes. You shouldn’t need to say “was abused by,” it’s implied. I think that such a thing needs to be specified is rather sad, actually, because it implies (to me) that there exists a case where characterizing it as a relationship is correct.