Did Hitler get into heaven?

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
Hitler, or Adolph Shickelgruber is the beloved child of God. I am not willing to stand in judgment of Hitler’s soul. I know that really pisses a lot of people off, but it is the truth, and I won’t hide from it. Now, if you think that means I find the things done by, and at the command of Hitler acceptable, you do not understand me. I loath the acts of Hitler. I loath even the acts that are credited to him that he did not do alone. He created hatred, and blamed that hatred on the Lord, among the many other acts of evil he has done.

But, the redeemer of souls is the rock on which my faith rests. Without Him, I am lost. I won’t get into a “who sinned more, me or Hitler” argument. But I sinned enough to fall short of the divine level of goodness that Heaven implies. If I am judged by that standard, I fall. If I am judged by the infinite love of Christ, I am raised up. But that doesn’t mean I won’t still face the reality of my sins. I will meet again, each soul I hated, every child I turned away from in their need, and all the weary hearts I turned away from because I wanted, and wanted, and wanted. It isn’t about degree.

But now, put aside your outrage and your anger at the deeds of Hitler in the world. Think a moment of what is implied by the salvation of Adolph Shickelgruber. It implies that he faced the Lord, and saw the truth about himself, and every deed and every failure he has done. And he learned of his failure, and learned that love can overcome it. Imagine Hitler redeemed. Not just forgiven, but made into a soul as dedicated to good, and to love as he was to power and hatred in the world. Hitler with the real and overwhelming desire to be as the Lord is. Hitler willing, even anxious to serve in humility those same souls he despised in life, and willing, even joyous to do so for a million years. To do so until those souls too are healed of their understandable hatred of Hitler. Imagine Hitler, the humble servant of all who have known hatred in life, and imagine him pleased to be able to make that service a thing more important than all the evil that came before it.

Salvation is not a door prize, it is a new birth. Don’t suppose that Judgment comes easily, or that rebirth comes without pain.Please don’t close your heart. Loving the lovable is easy. Knowing that love is greater than evil, no matter how great the evil is does matter. It matters to you, because however much it is understandable, and however evil the one you hate is, hatred harms you.

Tris
[/QUOTE]

Thanks Tris

-FrL-

22

All the dross will be burned away. Whatever it is about Hitler that is despicable will perish in the flames; whatever survives will be those remnants that were never despicable.
Some people are going to be very much smaller and simpler - maybe a bit like newborn babes - after this process.

23

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
All the dross will be burned away. Whatever it is about Hitler that is despicable will perish in the flames; whatever survives will be those remnants that were never despicable.
Some people are going to be very much smaller and simpler - maybe a bit like newborn babes - after this process.
[/QUOTE]

I think Universalism is the best doctrine available concerning “life after death.”

But I also think the verse you quote is most naturally read as applying to members of the church, not to everyone who ever lives.

Hey, it is GD after all… :stuck_out_tongue:

-FrL-

24

Ok.

25

Tris–you seem to represent the noblest sentiments to be found in Christianity, seldom seen these days. Beautifully said.

26

[QUOTE-Trisk]
Please don’t close your heart. Loving the lovable is easy. Knowing that love is greater than evil, no matter how great the evil is does matter. It matters to you, because however much it is understandable, and however evil the one you hate is, hatred harms you.
[/QUOTE]

Preaching to the choir, Trisky, me and The Boss have no issues to resolve. But you do it good, so do it loud!

27

My understanding is Hitlers deeds will determine his ‘place’ in ‘heaven’, but not if he is actually saved.

28

[QUOTE=Monty]
Too bad you over-simplified that perspective to the point of, yet again, being wrong about it. The comment at the end, of course, is just a snide way of poking fun at something you disagree with. Had you explained the LDS perspective correctly, the snide comment wouldn’t look so cool.
[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. Where, as a Mormon, do you think Hitler will end up? I see two possibilities:

  1. He accepts the gospel in the spirit world, has temple work vicariously performed for him, and inherits Celestial glory, or
  2. He rejects the gospel in the spirit world and is damned to the Telestial glory.

If you see any others, I’m all…eyes.

29

All too complicated. You sure this isn’t some trick to sneak some lawyers into Heaven?

30

[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus]
Didn’t he kill himself, which would have made himself ineligible for heaven, according to most Christian interpretations?
[/QUOTE]

I went to a Catholic high school. Religion classes were mandatory (I get a kick out of telling people I almost failed Morality class.. Though I admit it was because I was sick for a full week before finals).

One brother told us that suicide used to be a MAJOR sin.. You couldn’t even be buried in the church graveyard back then if you offed yourself. I don’t know how long ago this was. Eventually you were allowed in the graveyard but couldn’t go upstairs. Finally the church decided that one is mentally ill at the point of deciding to head out and as the church does not allow the mentally disabled (nor newborns.. There’s a specific point in their development that only God knows where they can be put on trial) to go to Hell, they get a pass to heaven. Though there was some mention of limbo.. Can’t remember whether he said that was in or out nowadays.

I can’t believe I’m actually educating people on this.

(the above views are not my own. I personally believe you go to a rural area in northwest Idaho whether you’re good or bad. Just God’s sense of humor.)

31

[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
The Mormon perspective would be that Hitler is headed (after judgment) to the Telestial Kingdom. The TK is the lowest of the three degrees of glory that humans can attain, and isn’t nearly as spiffy as the other two, but it’s still several zillion times better than the world we live in now.

Not bad for a guy who engineered a half-successful genocide.
[/QUOTE]

While that’s certain a possibility in LDS theology, isn’t it also possible that Hilter could be considered a son of perdition who indeed goes into the Lake of Fire?

As someone who had identified himself as a Hopeful Universalist, I also add that I really don’t hope too much for Hitler, Stalin, similar tyrants & their lackeys, and child abusers. BUT I can’t limit the Grace & Forgiveness of God in Jesus Christ.
I do have to add this tho- if Hitler does go to Heaven, it will be a Heaven which is ruled by the God revealed to the Hebrews, Who embodied Himself as the Son of David- the King of the Jews, Who gave His Word to the prophets of Israel, Who chose Jews as His family & friends during His Incarnation.

Those Jews & others Hitler murdered & oppressed will also be there, and he would have to repent to them. Even if he were to surrender to the Jewish-Christian God’s authority, could he bring himself to humble himself before his victims? Hitler may be in Heaven, but WILL it be Heavenly to him?

Hitler, his victims, and all abusers & their victims, and you & me will all be in Heaven on the same basis - the Grace & Forgiveness of God through Jesus Christ and our eventual surrender & embrace of God/Jesus, in this life or the afterlife (and one’s choice on that matter in this life could well be the determining factor for the afterlife). If we will not make that surrender & embrace to God/JC, then we may still be in Heaven, but I won’t guarantee at all that it would be that Heavenly.

Btw, I now see that Monty also nicely addressed the LDS question & others have
made a great representation for Christian Universalism.

32

[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
Imagine Hitler redeemed. Not just forgiven, but made into a soul as dedicated to good, and to love as he was to power and hatred in the world. Hitler with the real and overwhelming desire to be as the Lord is. Hitler willing, even anxious to serve in humility those same souls he despised in life, and willing, even joyous to do so for a million years.

Tris
[/QUOTE]

Is this a joke because I don’t get it? How can Hitler serve any good cause, he is dead? The evil he created will live on forever but he can in no way redeem any of his acts nor substitute right minded ones. What philosophy permits him the opportunity of redemption simply because he had the leisure to contemplate his vile existence? Is the same redemption granted to those shot through the back of the head without the chance of reflection?

33

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
Even if he were to surrender to the Jewish-Christian God’s authority, could he bring himself to humble himself before his victims? Hitler may be in Heaven, but WILL it be Heavenly to him?
[/QUOTE]

Yes the slate will be wiped clean. Hitler’s sins will have been paid in full and would have died on the cross. His sins will never be brought up again.

34

[QUOTE=don’t ask]
What philosophy permits him the opportunity of redemption simply because he had the leisure to contemplate his vile existence?
[/QUOTE]

Scripture permits one’s sins to be totally wiped clean. This leaves Hitler with only a list of his good deeds remaining, which he will be judged on by the Father.

35

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
My understanding is Hitlers deeds will determine his ‘place’ in ‘heaven’, but not if he is actually saved.
[/QUOTE]

A hierarchical heaven? I guess scrubbing angels’ toilets is still better than ruling in Hell. Still, I find that very medieval to believe there is a VIP in heaven.

36

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Scripture permits one’s sins to be totally wiped clean. This leaves Hitler with only a list of his good deeds remaining, which he will be judged on by the Father.
[/QUOTE]

So if I go next door and stab the woman with the too-loud-TV, I just have to duck back home, quick prayer of forgiveness, sins forgotten, easier sleeping and heaven awaits?

37

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Scripture permits one’s sins to be totally wiped clean. This leaves Hitler with only a list of his good deeds remaining, which he will be judged on by the Father.
[/QUOTE]

…IF one truly repents and submits to God’s Law, one gets the clean wipe. That, in the view of most western religious traditions. In the church AH was educated in (Catholicism) and many other “classic” Christian churches, although not willing to declare anyone hellbound except for Satan, the outlook in the Next World is considered, well, rather dim if someone leaves This World in a state of Mortal Sin and in terminal, unrepentant defiance and persistence in evil (with the caveat that it’s unknowable for 100% certain if this was so to anyone but God and the Sinner).

If the process is instead one more along the lines of “fire test” described in the scripture quote abovethread, this would mean undergoing a process of destruction of the evil part of him that I would like to think would involve experiencing the pain every last of his victims experienced. It would be left to see if there’s anything left of him at the end of the process.

As mentioned also abovethread, there are theologies under which everyone gets to enter the Kingdom, but not everyone Lives Happily Ever After.
And YES of course, all this is moot if there is NO afterlife, or at least no “cosmic payback” system* a-la* Heaven/Hell, Karma, etc. so AH just up and went out leaving us all to clean up the mess and millions to have pain and suffering as their last conscious experience before they themselves simply switched off and ceased to be. The premise of the OP question is IF there is this theory that Jesus died for everyone’s sins and achieved for admission to the Eternal Kingdom, is anyone excepted from the offer.

38

[QUOTE=Sapo]
A hierarchical heaven? I guess scrubbing angels’ toilets is still better than ruling in Hell. Still, I find that very medieval to believe there is a VIP in heaven.
[/QUOTE]

Sapo this is not directed at you, but I have heard many people say things along the lines that it is unfair of God to punish man for eternity for sins he committed while man was on earth, basically the punishment is far too much for anything that man could have done on earth for the finite time man exists. Then we get the same people say thing along the lines of how can Hitler get into heaven?

Anyway with that out of the way here is some of what is written about final judgment:

[QUOTE=Revelation 21:12]
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
…
Revelation 21:15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
[/QUOTE]

39

[QUOTE=don’t ask]
So if I go next door and stab the woman with the too-loud-TV, I just have to duck back home, quick prayer of forgiveness, sins forgotten, easier sleeping and heaven awaits?
[/QUOTE]

You left out the part of accepting Jesus as your lord (king) and savior. As your king you are to serve Him, not Satan, which you served when you committed murder.

40

[QUOTE=clayton_e]
I almost failed Morality class.. Though I admit it was because I was sick . . .
[/QUOTE]
You sick bastard!

Sorry, some temptations are too much to resist.

Tris