Did I handle this atheist student correctly?

Great Debates
1

Okay, background: I teach science, in Texas. It’s a great job, and I like it, but the climate here can be decidedly dicey; earlier this year while discussing gravitation I used evolution as an example, and said that while both gravitation and evolution are rock solid facts, we’ve still got theories as to how exactly they occur. This annoyed more than a few people in my classes.

Anyways.

One of my students, let’s call him J., is in general a smart but lazy kid who tends to act out and do/say outrageous things to get a reaction. He’s not a bad kid, he’s just a teenager and therefore stuck in the hell that is adolescence. He’s also an atheist, in a rather small, very religious town.

During class last week, the students had finished their work for the day and gotten into a debate about religion vs. atheism, and creationism vs. evolution. I chimed in at a few points to correct errors of scientific fact and procedure, but I refused to weigh in on the religious debate. (When students have previously asked me about ‘Intelligent Design’, I’ve told them that it’s not science, that it is religion, and that I do not believe I can safely and legally take a position pro or con religious teachings in a public school classroom). However, this standard approach left me feeling a little cold after the discussion among my students concluded at the passing bell.

I called J. over and gave him a pass so that he wouldn’t be tardy to his next class, and then I explained to him that in America in general, atheists are generally less trusted/liked than almost everybody else, putting them on the same level of trusworthiness as rapists and folks often feel that we’re not “real Americans”. I also pointed out that, if anything, this belief is stronger in Texas and that he should learn to pick his battles and keep his mouth shut otherwise. I also got a copy of The Selfish Gene for him along with a quick printout of Sagan’s ‘dragon in my garage’ story, and I’m sending those to him along with a handwritten note telling him, among other things, to learn about epistemology and scientific fact/reasoning, and to “keep [his] eyes open and [his] head down.”

Now, while I think this is generally a good bit of advice… I’m troubled. It disturbs me, on a fundamental level, that atheists are often still required to be ‘in the closet’ (for the lack of a better phrase). I wish that we were at the point where atheists, even in Texas, could be open about their lack of belief and not have it count against them. But we’re not there yet. That being said… have I done my part to advance the cause of atheist rights by letting a child know that it’s okay to be an atheist and that there’s a rational framework out there that he can learn about, or by teaching my student to look out for himself and not make any waves, have I set us back a bit and ensured that we’ll be ‘in the closet’ for a bit longer?

I honestly don’t know, but I figured that GD was a good place to hash it out.

2

Uh, what?

3

Um, this.

4

In my opinion, that’s hyperbole.

That advise is fine, and can apply to politics and sports as well as religion. :slight_smile:

While I think it’s fine to encourage him to “think for himself”, I don’t think you should be doing more than you were hired to do, which was teaching science, right?

Parents can get pretty touchy about what teachers are saying to their kids. You’re placing yourself in a position where you might have to deal with a lot of melodrama, or worse. Take your own advise, and pick your fights carefully.

I think religion is something that, as a fundamental freedom, needs to be out of public schools, and handled at home only, both for and against. (I would say the same thing with Intelligent Design theory, too.)

5

It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of fact. I just linked to results of a study. I can link to others, if you require, all with similar findings.

Epistemology and evolution are both part and parcel of science, and sending home scientific materials is not in violation of the code of professional ethics. I gave him The Selfish Gene, not The God Delusion. I have, in point of fact, made no explicit statements, written or spoken, about religious views at all. I am, however, allowed to teach my students about science, and I have done so.

6

I hope it’s clear to you and your students that you don’t have to be atheist to believe in evolution, and you don’t have to be a creationist to be a Christian.

Now if you’re atheist you probably have no problem with evolution, and most creationists are Christians, but it’s unfortunate when the idea that “Christians = creationists” is reinforced.

I also appreciate your efforts to help him, but I think you’re walking a thin line - if his parents are religious I could see them getting upset that you’re “encouraging” his atheism. I think it would be better to participate in the classroom debate but dismiss the religious arguments (it is a science class, no?) and help the students see that all the scientific facts and evidence point to evolution as a fact. That would at the very least give some legitimacy to J. in the eyes of his classmates. If I were a teacher I’d encourage them to take their religious debates elsewhere, outside of science class.

7

Intelligent design is a religious belief; and it isn’t a theory.

8

You did this in Texas, OMG. Yeah be prepared to fight to the death (of your job) if the parents are fundamentalists of any kind and find out YOU turned their kid against god.

9

As a fellow Texan, former resident of a small Texas town and an Atheist, I have to say you did very well, in both advice and action. Even now I am accused of being in league with the Devil, having no morals etc. In a small town hoo boy it could be very bad for him
Capt

10

Where do I start?
First of all, you misquoted the study if your link to the ABC Newspage was correct. It was that “religious believers” don’t trust atheists which

  1. Is very different than your “Americans”
  2. Falls into the Counselor Troi area of observing the obvious.
  3. Did you read the original study and critically evaluate it as a researcher? It may have a flawed design or have been misquoted in your source.

Second, you equated a student with a rapist. I know you don’t think you did, but once the story goes from student to parent to principal, well you know the saying that perception is reality.

Third, it is not your role as a science teacher to discuss the social implications of atheism one-on-one and not in the context of a whole class discussion if at all; especially how you called him over and he did not approach you after class. I would call this a violation of the teacher-student relationship.

Fourth, the advice you gave was horrendous and inappropriate for a secondary student. We should be teaching our students that there are consequences for their actions but let them make their own decisions based on the information we give them. I have been in situations similar to you in that I am a Boy Scout leader and I have had boys come up to me to discuss their atheism. I’ve found out that they don’t really know what atheism is and so I discuss it with them (and I do have a background in comparative religion) and focus more on what they do or do not believe rather than attaching a title to it. After our talk, I give them the same advice - Atheist are not allowed in Boy Scouts and if you choose to call yourself an atheist publicly, you will be thrown out of Scouting. So I’ve helped then understand their own view and let them know the consequence of “coming out of the closet” but I do not advise them to take one approach or the other.

11

Your opinion is wrong. :slight_smile:

At least, it’s not hyperbole depending on the town you come from. My high school biology teacher (small town Arkansas) prefaced his lecture on evolution by saying “While I believe in evolution for most creatures, I believe mankind was put on the earth by God. If anybody disagrees with this or has a problem with it, please raise your hand”.

I’ll leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine how many kids raised their hands. Also, to determine just how badly any boy in the class would be beaten by his peers if he expressed thoughts approaching support for atheism, abortion, or homosexuality.

Also, for what it’s worth, there were several known (actual and would-be) rapists on the football team that were adored, so yeah, some rapists would actually be more highly regarded than atheists, especially if we won the state championship that year.

While American culture has changed significantly since I left high school, things back in my home town aren’t that much different now than back then. The facebook posts by the folks back in my hometown are clear evidence of that.

12

“You may be right, but you don’t have to be up in everyone else’s face about it” is very constructive advice in the grand majority of contexts, as far as I’m concerned. The only fundamental flaw I can see here is that you went and gave this bit of wisdom to the minority in private, and not to the whole of the class in public.

As is, “I believe you’re right but I can’t say so in front of the class” makes you something of a punk ass bitch, if you don’t mind me saying so.

13

I feel for the kid, not having my advantages. I grew up in Waco, the Athens on the Brazos, home of the feared and dreaded Baylor Bears. There was, and most likely remains, acceptance of a wide variety of Baptist beliefs. There may have been some Unitarians there, though I understand they communicated by way of secret hand signals and coded messages. Some Jews, of course, but they were mostly in Temple.

Seems to me you pretty much did the best you could.

14

I think we understand pretty well how these things occur…

The were created…5000 years ago…by God.

15

I’m sometimes tempted to put a provocative bumper-sticker on my car, something like, “JESUS IS LORD OVER NOTHING” or “MY GODDESS CAN BEAT UP YOUR GOD,” but I seriously would fear vandalism. And I live in Florida, not Texas.

16

For some reason I thought this was going to be a copy and past of that atheist professor joke. Anyway, I’d recommend showing them Kenneth Miller on intelligent design and evolution. He’s a Catholic biologist and he finds faith and evolution reconcilable (as does George Coyne). The former may be interesting to watch for your class too, but if you have to stick to a curricula it may not be worth it.

As for the real Americans thing: there’s this attributed quote.

17

A distinction without a difference, as the vast majority of Americans are religious.

18

Best if you don’t go trolling, then. I don’t think I’d care to put “Fags make me sick” as my signature round here, even if it’s perfectly true and I just had to put up with it when I was a youngster.

19

Yes, but I was quite careful to put nothing in writing or hardcopy that actually directly encouraged atheism. Sagan’s dragon is about epistemology/the scientific method, and that’s something I’m not only authorized but expected to teach. Evolution, likewise, is part and parcel of the standard curriculum for biological science in Texas.

As for participating in classroom debate, it’s limited for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I’m certainly not about to come out as an atheist in Smalltown, TX. I have pointed out the facts we know about evolution, abiogenesis and cosmogensis as they were relevant and/or fruitful tangents, but I’m playing it rather close to the vest, all in all.

I’m on secure ground there, at least, as I’m well within the scope of my professional duties and have not violated any professional codes of conduct. While I might end up in a fight, it’s not one that I’d lose.

Thanks. He’s not a bad kid, but I’d feel awful if he loses a job, or something of the sort, because he doesn’t recognize the social reality and thinks that life will always be like it is now with his peer group in Smalltown, TX.

Thanks, as others pointed out I’m walking a very thin line, but providing gifts of material aligned with the state curriculum isn’t anything sanctionable.

No, I didn’t, and your hairsplitting between “Americans” and “religious folks” does the debate a disservice.

And now we’ve left the realm of bad argument and entered Bizarro World.
Adios.

20

The problem you describe, in Texas and elsewhere, would go away sooner if more students and teachers came out of the closet. Pretending to believe in a some kind of god like creature is no way to live.