I said Inteligent Design would NOT be teached in public school.
I agree, and that’s part of my worry here.
As long as we’re in the closet, society at large can continue to either pretend we barely exist or spin lurid horror stories about how unAmerican and untrustworthy atheists are in general. The best way we can deal with that is to be ‘out and proud’, so to speak. However, by the same token, there’s a very real risk of financial repercussions, and I’m not willing to lose my job in order to be a martyr to the cause.
I’m not sure if I’ve improved things for J. at all, or if I’m just helping to perpetuate the system.
Not unless it was by someone better-educated than you, I hope.
I don’t think you did anything wrong, but this is the sort of thing he needs to learn on his own.
You should have read the rest of what I wrote. I acknowledge you did not call him a rapist but questioned how what you said would eventually be interpreted. Havn’t you ever played telephone? Or maybe I should demonstrate with an example that was resolved last night:
Asst Principal to Cad Jnr (one-on-one): If you do not pay your activity fee, you cannot participate in after school activities in 8th grade. Let me send you home with absolutely no documentation whatsoever. Now back to class.
Cad Jnr to Me: Dad, the AP says that if I don’t pay an activity fee by Thursday, I can’t go to 8th grade.
Me: Did he give you any note or anything?
Cad Jnr.: No
Now I have been a teacher for 15 years and so I allowed that the message may have been mistranslated. I have also sat in parent meetings with a Principal whose first rule is the parent is always right, even if they are shown to be wrong. My point number 2 was not that what you said was wrong but that the way you phrased it could be twisted by the time it was processed by the parent which was unwise.
I also notice that you chose the part of my second point that you wanted (with a dismissive adios) without quoting the whole thing and ignored points 3 and 4. Interesting behavior from a science teacher. It almost seems like you are cherrypicking the replies that support you or the ones you can strawman.
Help me out here. Why should a teacher’s view on religion, homosexuality, abortion, Obama’s birthplace etc. have anything to do with whats going on in the classroom?
Both atheist and religious believers should be in the closet while teaching students.
What troubled me was the OP felt an obligation to tell the student to keep his views quiet. He actually encouraged a deeper closet. I’m sure he acted with the best intentions, but I am troubled his student is in an environment where we have to worry about repercussions. I would have preferred giving him some Sam Harris books and telling him he would be there for him if anyone attacks him for his lack of religious views.
So you’re saying it should be taught if it was by someone more educated than mlees? I don’t think it should be taught at all by any teacher.
I think his point is that the other group is out of the closet, and atheists who remain in theirs make it appear that they don’t exist.
That’s what bothered me too… but I’m honestly not sure how else I could’ve safely played it, and I’m not at the point where I’m truly wiling to gamble my job on the religious views of the community. I’m designing an update of curriculum I developed for critical thinking, science in society and media literacy, and I’ll have parent-signed waivers up the wazoo, but until that point I need to play it close to the vest.
I read the entirety of the rest of your post.
It was worse; the rest of your screed was even less coherent, less cogent, more irrational, and more willfully ignorant. For someone who says he’s been a teacher for so long, your lack of knowledge about professional standards and pedagogical best practices is, in retrospect, even more disturbing. For instance, the idea that we’re simply supposed to provide information to students and not suggest a course of action, especially on important life-choices, is shockingly irresponsible, and I have no wish to continue any sort of discussion of any sort with you on this topic.
As I said, adios.
Finn, I hope I didn’t sound to critical. Understand you were in a tough position. I long for the day where it where part of the curriculum will be to teach that Zeus doesn’t actually exist. (and the other gods too)
No worries. Similar, but not identical, misgivings to yours were what caused me to start this thread in the first place.
A Dios? A deft bit of irony, there?
So ignore people that disagree with you and purposely misrepresent one of the points made? Then you question a pedagogical approach that fosters self-awareness and self-advocacy and imply that best practices is TELLING the student what to do rather than scaffolding the decision-making process and guiding the metacognition to make a mature decision.
I think the problem with your teaching of science has nothing to do with atheism and religion.
And in this situation I do question your suggesting to J a course of action. Unless you left something out of the OP, it is not a situation in which a student can up to you asking for advice. YOU called him over and started pontificating to him. If your OP talked about how he came to you frustrated that no one understood him and in such a religious town there is no one to talk to … then my take on what you did would be completely different.
You talked about professional standards
[QUOTE=Proposition 1
]
They respect the cultural and family differences students bring to their classroom.
They are concerned with their students’ self-concept, their motivation and the effects of learning on peer relationships.
NBCTs are also concerned with the development of character and civic responsibility.
[/QUOTE]
Do you think telling him to stay in the religious closet addresses these standards?
Which was my point too. I feel the OP should have given him resources and made him aware of the consequences of both choices then let J know that he would support him no matter what he chose but apparently the OP feels the teacher’s role is to tell a student what to do and not let then develop a decision with help.
Not as such, just trying to avoid Pit verbiage.
There is certainly a degree of learning-by-experience required to internalize some lessons. And it’s true that it may take a bit for J. to really grok what I told him. But I do think that at least being made aware that it’s an issue may leave him forewarned and properly armed. I do know that he appreciated it, as he made a point to come back to my room and thank me later in the day and then the next day, so I think my point may’ve gotten through.
Just still not 100% sure that there wasn’t a more efficacious course of action open to me that didn’t buy into the closeting of atheists.
I think you did good. Head down is good advice for anyone not on the main path in high school, unless you are in a high school culture with a high tolerance for diversity. They exist, but you’d know if your school was one of those places. Head up and proud is a good way to find yourself bleeding.
However, with head down its a good idea to let the kids who are heads down know they are not alone, you did good there too. Someday, you’ll be “that teacher who took a few minutes to let me know that who I am is ok.”.
I have a twelve year old out and proud atheist geek in my house, in a fairly tolerant environment, and her social life is not made easier by her views. We can take her out of the school in hours if we need to and get her into a different environment. Not everyone has that option.
Overall you handled it well in the sense that you gave good advice to all of your students regarding the use of science in understanding religion.
You gave decent advice to J, but if you never heard of his philosophical beliefs until you allowed a debate on religion and atheism in your classroom then maybe he already understands that he is going to be treated with prejudice and knows when to bring up the topic.
I think mentioning the mistrust study is where you fell short. That’s really a cold thing to bring up to a teenager who is forming his identity. Let him figure that part out for himself, that’s part of him growing up. Usually those issues with mistrust are not relevant because religious belief is not constantly questioned. The correct thing you did was to support his understanding of evolution with the supplementary material you gave him. Other supportive materials in helping him form his identity as an atheist and perhaps a scientist are strongly recommended.
I don’t know what kind of time you have in class to really work through such debates, but religion/atheism does not seem worthy of a scientific classroom in the way I am assuming it was handled in your class. Discussing what we know of the science of religious belief and atheism may be far more relevant and give the students something to ponder from multiple angles instead of having a debate of one over the other.
It strikes me that this general attitude is likely to cause him at least as much trouble in life as the specific content of his beliefs. It might be a less controversial point at which to attempt to modify his behavior, while largely achieving the same goal.
Texas and Minnesota aren’t really comparable however. I grew up in small town MN and evolution was what was taught and nobody raised an issue with it, christian, jewish, athiest, or other. Having scientifically supported views wasn’t liable to out anyone or cause any discrimination, unless they were one who…
I think FinnAgain missed an opportunity to provide a broader lesson. The issue isn’t so much that the student should bury his atheist beliefs to get along, it is that he should learn to temper is outrageous behavior to get along. If he is prone to outrageous and reactionary behavior, their is a pretty fair chance the atheist viewpoints may not be something he embraces. They may simply be a means to “get a reaction”. In that case he isn’t going to heed the advice, nor will he be advancing the cause.
I see Tom said things much more succinctly while I was typing.