Saw The Score last night. IMHO, Ed Norton stole (yuk) the show. Anyway here’s my Q:
We can speculate all day over the numerous improbabilities that clutter this movie, but I’ll give the author the benefit of the doubt for most of them. One thing, however, that seems not just improbable, but impossible, inspired me to post this thread.
DeNiro figures out a way to crack the “uncrackable” safe by flooding it with H2O, then setting off an explosive charge inside. Fine. [Eye-rolling smiling here.] But he fills the refrigerator-sized safe with water he taps from the fire sprinkler pipe. Wouldn’t that have set off the fire alarm? I mean, doesn’t the alarm trigger when a large volume of water starts flushing through the pipes as would happen if one of the sprinkler-heads had fired?
Fire sprinkler experts please comment. Thanks all.
No fire sprinkler expert here, but here’s what I can offer.
There is always water flowing through those pipes. When the alarm goes off, valves open at various points in the pipe, and, of course, water exits through those valves.
Since water is always flowing through the pipes, one could tap into the pipe and use that water, as Robert De Niro’s character did.
This would not set the alarm off since water is flowing through the pipes anyway. All the alarm does is simply open the valves in the pipe.
My question would be: Didn’t he have to leave the hole open in the top of the safe? Would that still leave enough pressure to blow the door off, even with the vent in the top?
Fire sprinkler pipes are always pressurized. Each individual sprinkler contains its own heat sensitive ‘valve’ that opens when there’s a fire near that particular sprinkler.
Well, he used that same hole to insert the bomb. So I’m assuming that whatever was used the insert the bomb created a seal around the hole. I’m sure the explosion would blow the seal, but I think it was enough to also blow the door.
vandal I think you are mistaken. (But obviously because I posted this Q I’m not 100% certain…)
I don’t think that water continually flows through those pipes. (Or if it does, it does so at a slow and very predictable rate, say to keep from rust building up inside.) No, I think that the water just sits in the pipe – under pressure and ready to flow as soon as there’s a opening in the system, just like the water in your home if none of the faucets are turned on.
The sprinkler heads, I know, operate independently – they don’t get “turned on” by some remote control; they trip when the room temperature melts a little metal link that otherwise keeps the valve shut.
So… no fire = no tripped sprinkler head = no opening in the system = no surge of water through the pipes = no fire alarm triggering. As soon as a “sensor” (my generic term) at the front end of the sprinkler-pipe network picks up a drop in pressure and/or a flow of water through the system, the bells start ringing.
Well, actually, I thought they operate via a smoke dectector. I could be wrong, but that is the way they’ve been depicted in movies. You know, some guy will hold a match right under the sprinkler head, and as a result, water starts pouring out.
But, I see what you’re saying. The building is supposed to be “really old” in the movie, so perhaps, the sprinkler system in the building operates under some archaic method, which De Niro’s character took advantage of.
Sprinkler pipes are filled with air (under pressure), not water (to prevent rusting IIRC). When the seal in the sprinkler head melts, the air is released, which in turns allows water to flow into the system. From what I understand, the water pressure breaks the seals in the other sprinkler heads in the same area as the one that allowed the air pressure to escape.
You might remember from the movie that there is a sound of air being released when he first taps the pipe, but I’m not sure if there was really enough to reflect the way it would have worked IRL.
My problem with this safecracking method while watching this movie was that it seemed to me that pressure high enough to blast off a safe door is going to be more than enough to seriously deform the merchandise inside the safe. Maybe I’m missing some principle of physics.
Systems like this, and what DeNiro’s character did would have set off LOTS of alarms in the fire control system. ANY drop in system pressure, even if the water pressure in the whole neighborhood drops for whatever reason, activates these. On the better systems, the local sensors can even tell approximately where the pressure loss is happening. As soon as water started being tapped, security panels would have lit up like Christmas trees, and more than likely a couple of security people would have been sent to the general vicinity of where the safe-cracking was taking place.
But what kind of uncrackable safe is it if you can drill a hole through the top in a couple of minutes? Am I missing something? Why couldn’t you just drill a big enough hole to stick your arm in and grab whatever you want? Or cut the whole top off? De Niro had a bit of a time constraint, but originally (before all the extra alarms got put in), there was some comment about his having the entire night to work on it.
The gaffe that I noticed had nothing to do with safe cracking. Earlier in the movie, Robert Deniro sent a henchman over to Edward Norton’s apartment to rough him up. Edward Norton turned the tables and beat up the henchman. He also showed up at Robert Deniro’s place with a baseball bat, intending to do some damage. I noticed that when Edward Norton left the apartment, he left behind the baseball bat. I kept waiting for a later development in the movie to deal with the baseball bat, but nothing ever happened. I’m so proud of myself for spotting this gaffe. Usually, I get so wrapped up in the movie, that I don’t notice anything that happens in the movie; I have to wait for a thread like this to appear.
Most modern sprinkler systems have pressure indicator alarms (I think they are called Post Indicator Valves, typical “U” shape pipes seen in front of commercial or industrial buildings) that are tied directly to the local fire department. When the system is shut-off or ANY water pressure change occurs at all, the bells go-a-ringin’.
To answer the question about whether the bomb in the safe would damage the contents, specifically the sceptre, it depends. The bomb effectively increases the water pressure a lot. If the scepter is hollow, it could be filled with water, and the increase in pressure would have occurred inside and outside of it, cancelling the effect. If the scepter is solid gold the increase in pressure would be pressing in on all sides simultaneously, again, cancelling out the effect. If it was hollow and filled with air, or filled with a softer material it would also be crushed. I’m sure some physics person is going to correct me any time now, but I think that’s why the scepter wasn’t damaged.
What I’m unsure about is whether the hole in the top would cancel the effect De Niro was going for. My grandmother’s propane tank has a pressure release valve on its top. Sometimes in the summer, the heat will cause the propane to expand, greatly increasing the pressure inside, and the pressure release valve vents some gas to keep the tank from bursting or blowing a seam. And this is gas pressure. Water pressure is much more intense. Without the hole, the door, being the weakest point would definitely blow. With the hole, it would act as a pressure release valve, letting a lot of the increased water pressure out. The question is, would the hole release enough pressure to keep the door intact? Physics people?
On the OP: are we sure it was the sprinkler system he tapped into? I assumed it was just a regular water pipe, but I wasn’t looking that closely for what kind of water pipe.
Medstar: How is this a gaffe? The fact that the bat wasn’t mentioned again means that it wasn’t important to the plot.
I have yet to see the movie. (I will this week).
Would someone be able to open a safe that way? With relockers, Bolt work and other basic manuafacturing standards…Very doubtful.I have yet to get see what kind of safe/vault you are talking about. So, I shall wait and go see the movie before saying “no way in hell”
But it does make for some very cool Special effects
as to the sprinkler system… I will have to ask someone at work.
Don’t heavy duty safes have a glass panel on hte inside of the door to allow maintainence the lock? Not seeing the movie I would guess some air would be trapped in here and the explosion would break the glass as air in here gets compressed. This alone would reduce the force agaist the door.
As for the sprinklers - I know of the metal melting type (the ones that go off only when tepm rises enough). I allways assumes the pipes were filled with water. And I assumed that these old systems were not alarmed.
Here are a few thoughts.
The opening safe job. Very close to how it is done. Although they do make much better dial pullers and the hole was in the wrong location. But, was realistic yet, not informative enough for rank newbies to go drilling safes open.
The safe at the end is a jewlers safe. I did not catch the name. The safe was not “uncrackable” as much as Time did not allow for a standard opening.
Since I did not get the name/model number I cannot look it up in my book. Yes I have one, I have connections… (had to see the movie to get that joke.)
The safe did have dual dials. It also had glass relockers inside the door. [de Niro] Hit the glass and we are F…ed[De Niro] The reason behind the glass relocks is to shatter if the container drilled to be opened. The glass holds back one or more Relocks which fire when the glass (tempered) is broken. Relockers are additional bolts that fire into the door frame to make opening more difficult.
Trust me if you fire a relocker you have to drill holes to work the main bolts back, then a hole for each relocker as well. VERY time intensive.
The tool used to make the hole in the top of the safe looked to be a thermal lance. I have used one in Lexington, and within 8 seconds I had burned a hole thru a GSA red label door and 4 inches into the asphalt I had placed the door on. So, the cutting o the hole was somewhat reasonable.
The explosion. Yes, with a big enough bang the internal pressure would bow and flex the door right off. Of course, I would think, the top and sides would have been bowed outwards from the pressure before the door finally went. The Bolts (and relockers) would have made real nasty tears in the frame as they were blown out. The safe and the door edges would not have been smooth and non-deformed.
Once again, go with what looks good instead of realism on a minor level.
The scepter, was in a drawer below the main chamber of the safe. When he broke the lock to get the drawers out, I did not see any water pouring out, or the scepter case being damp. (I might have missed it though) This would not fly in RL due to the explanation Number 6 listed.
Is about all I can help you from the safe end of the question. Not until I can gain access to the movie on DVD anway.