The same way that people who are stuck in the path of hurricanes and are killed by them are victims, but people who make a special trip into a hurricane to go surfing and drown aren’t? North Koreans live in hell because they have no choice. Coldbier thought that hell would be a fun tourist outing.
Ditto.
The detainees at GITMO should have been afforded basic human rights that we all embrace as a western civilization. So did Otto. So do the North Koreans. So do all of the Syrians caught up in their brutal civil war and countless other examples of people all over the world who are denied basic human dignity and rights as we understand them. That doesn’t change the fact that the possibility existed (much more so than travelling anywhere else in the world) that something like this might have happened. He chose to go there. No, he didn’t waive his human rights when he made that choice, but he freely chose to go to a place where human rights are not considered, and certainly aren’t on par with what he was accustomed to at home.
Do you have another cite. Why do you think this is a widespread opinion on the left?
Not only do I think he didn’t deserve what happened to him, I am not at all convinced that he did what he was accused of. I think maybe something happened, maybe he went off limits and saw something he shouldn’t have seen or heard something he shouldn’t have heard.
But the story just didn’t ring true to me. And the more I saw and read about the trip, the actual incident and Warmbier in general the more convinced I became that it was false. No one thing, just an accumulation of little things that seemed off. I think it was something NK made up
Shame on any of you that think this was an actual invitation to express your opinions or to debate. The OP is nothing but “hey, let me smear all liberals with the horrible opinion of this one person I cherry picked.”
Did you read my post? How did you take it as me thinking that is a widespread opinion on the left? I literally wrote “there is no widespread backing for North Korea on the left.”
Americans hold overwhelmingly negative opinions of North Korea. For those interested in turning it into a partisan pissing match, Republicans hold a slightly-less-favorable view of North Korea than Democrats.
You mean the OP?
Are you fucking kidding me? How does one college professor turn into “many on the American left”?
If I can find one person on the American right who says something wrong, does that reflect on everyone on the American right, or just on the one person who says it? (Hint: I call dibs on David Duke!)
Please don’t appear to threadshit. Ostensibly the thread is about the treatment of Otto Warnbier.
[/moderating]
If I start a thread and the OP is “What do you guys think about neo-Nazis murdering innocent civilians? Many conservatives are Nazis and agree that liberals should be murdered in the streets” will I have the presumption that I care about what the opinion of the board is wrt Nazis?
Autopsy shows no clear evidence of torture.
Otto Warmbier body showed no clear signs of torture - coroner - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41423729
The OP says “the American left” but ISTM the notion that he got what he deserved seems quite widespread, and not only on the left.
And as I said in the previous threads, this notion is wrong.
I know to some people who don’t travel much, they imagine some countries in an Indiana Jones way, where people will violently attack you the minute you get off the plane, but of course it’s not like that. Some 5000 westerners visit NK every year, and tens of thousands of chinese. Prior to this incident I think a fair appraisal would be that the risk of anything happening was very low.
Now, since this incident, I would strongly advise against travelling to NK (indeed I myself ruled out a possible visit to take part in the marathon) but you can’t blame Otto himself for ignoring what happened to Otto.
I’m not sure why they didn’t just kill him and bury the body; if it’s a message Kim or whoever was responsible — I doubt if the leader oversees all the tortures or conditions of prisoners any more than does the president of France for French prisoners — it seems to be a deathwish note.
As for the revolting concept of deserts, wasn’t America mostly made by young white males, many clueless, some rich, so that the sorry old hag now has a warm comfortable life there ?
Yes, all the women and minorities just sat around waiting for the white men to build the country. :rolleyes:
Many people are saying. Many on the left. Many, believe me.
I’m pretty sure most of them did what they were told by the richer white men.
Otherwise they wouldn’t have had to assert their equality later. You are not equal if you want to be equal.
And, of course, neither were prominent in the various and numerous ruling assemblies of the country until the 1950s.
So, when you said that white men built the country, what you meant was that they told women and minorities to build the country for them?
I wonder what a clear sign of torture would have been. He died of a year-old head injury - that could (or could not) have been the result of a beating, or falling due to stress positions or sleep deprivation, or one of the other forms of torture that doesn’t leave marks.
Maybe it would be more accurate to say that torture could not be proven, or ruled out. Or maybe that’s a nitpick.
Regards,
Shodan
That’s a good point. Per the article, the ME couldn’t verify claims of abuse by his parents.
You got any proof he did that? NK’s evidence is more than a tad shady.
To answer the OP: Nobody deserves to be tortured.