Is that statement an absolute? Under no circumstances would you ever believe it necessary or deserved?
Mea Culpa, I quoted the wrong post and failed to notice,
Yes, in no case is torture justified. None.
Do you disagree?
It has been demonstrated that all torture really does is make people tell the torturer whatever they want to hear to make the pain stop. Very few people have the internal strength to allow themselves to be tortured to death and it takes SERE training to get military to where they can resist [for the most part.]
I do remember reading on a clickbait add that his lower teeth “looked like they had been rearranged with pliers” - not sure what that means, though if you could get his pre trip dental xrays and compare them to his post trip xrays we might be able to prove something.
And I don’t believe that anybody deserves to be tortured, though there are a fair number of people I would happily pull the switch on the electric chair [or lethal injection, or whatever] for.
That being said, I really have very little sympathy for people who go to a foreign country and break laws willy-nilly and get imprisoned, flogged or executed. You do the crime, you pay the penalty. [makes that eye pointy motion at those morons who went and proslytized in Afghanistan …]
The bricks at Monticello weren’t placed by white hands.
Yes, in many instances that’s exactly how it went. The white men in charge commanded and everyone else did the work.
I’m not Monty, but speaking for myself - nope, never deserved. Never.
Don’t understand how it would be “necessary”. What could possibly justify or be helped by torture?
If the love of my life or my kids are in danger and torture is the only way to save them (ala Dirty Harry) I would absolutely use torture. Otherwise no.
Correction: Montecello was built by both free and slave hands.
I do, but I’m thinking beyond the CIA and government people. I think it would be justified in cases if my family were ever to be the victim of a very evil person who caused extreme harm or death or if there were a kidnapping situation and I was able to get my hands on the kidnapper. I’m one of those people who would like to have the bad guy locked in a room with me for my own punishment and to hell with the jail cell. I don’t really care if they provide good information. I almost hate to even think it, but if my son or daughter were ever sexually assaulted by a predator, I would have no problem going to town on them. But I think those would be the only circumstances. Fire away!
I understand the impulse to hurt and torture in the circumstances you describe, but such desires are against my ethics. They’re wrong, even if a person really, really wants them and indulging would feel good.
I’ve been skeptical that Warmbier actually did what he was accused of. My recall is fuzzy but it seems to me that he and his roommate both had a bit of alcohol in their system and then got separated from each other as they were celebrating New Year’s in North Korea. They eventually made it back to the hotel. It’s not clear from the video that Warmbier took down the sign that he was accused of removing. I don’t know…did officials claim to find it in his belongings? How do we know it wasn’t his roommate?
In any case, of course he didn’t deserve hard time for that offense and he certainly didn’t deserve to die. Assuming he did it, I think all that was necessary was for North Korea to detain him for a few weeks. That would have sufficiently scared the hell out of him. However, it seems that whatever happened to him occurred early in his stay, so maybe they did plan to keep him for a short period before using him as a bargaining chip for later return. I think his detention was a violation of human rights, but his death was probably a mistake.
I get that part too. I talk tough. I don’t know if I would have the balls to go through with actually causing that type of pain in another person. But when I think about what they have done to people I love, it’s hard to abstain. I’m not sure what I would do in that situation. Hopefully I never have to find out.
I remember one case where a father killed his son’s kidnapper in an airport. Youtube link here. I can most definitely see myself doing something like that. Those assholes don’t deserve the air they’re stealing from other human beings.
There’s a difference between “understandable” and “justified”. I can certainly imagine situations where I would torture another. But there’s a reason we have a justice system and frown on vigilante actions.
If it was not torture than what? A stroke? Perhaps brought on by stress?
What’s the source for your belief that Warnbier broke any North Korean laws?
I believe stroke has been ruled out:
The images clearly showed that his brain had been starved of oxygen and that large tracts of cells had died, Dr. Sammarco said. The medical diagnosis is anoxic-ischemic encephalopathy.
That condition differs from the damage that occurs during a stroke, when a single blood vessel is blocked, said Dr. Lee H. Schwamm, executive vice chairman of neurology at Massachusetts General Hospital.
With an injury like Mr. Warmbier’s, “blood flow is reduced everywhere — the pump is turned off,” said Dr. Schwamm, who reviewed the coroner’s report at The Times’s request.
In the United States, the most common cause is a cardiac arrest, often precipitated by a heart attack. While cardiac arrests are unlikely in healthy young men, they can happen if the victim is malnourished and suffers an imbalance of blood electrolytes, such as potassium, calcium, or magnesium, Dr. Schwamm said.
The damage is quick: It takes just four minutes without blood for brain cells to start to die.
Blood flow to the brain can be interrupted for any number of reasons. The whole-body CT scan did not find injuries associated with hanging, for example, but Dr. Schwamm said the evidence might not be visible if a bedsheet were used and the spine were not dislocated.
Reopening a semi-zombie to add an anecdote:
A friend of mine recently went on holiday to NK (and had the photos to prove it).
He told me that his tour leader was the same one who had “looked after” Otto, and that she showed him a video of Otto stealing the poster, so there’s no doubt he did it. Obviously didn’t deserve the treatment he received though, especially given that many people apparently bend rules like taking currency out of the country, so perhaps he had no idea they would take it so seriously, let alone get all cruel and unusual.
The rumor there was also that Otto had tried to hang himself and this is the cause of the ischaemic event.
Also, apropo of nothing, he told me that the newspapers say that north koreans win all sporting events. That there are pictures of podiums with, say, an Ethiopian and Kenyan getting second and third place in a long distance run, and, naturally, a north korean getting gold once again 
I think your friend misunderstood newspaper reports about North Korean athletes winning ((they did win a few medals at Rio) and earlier London) and extrapolating that to “stupid North Koreans think that they win every sporting events”. :dubious:
Most newspapers in most countries do in fact carry reports of their own athletes winning when that happens.
Nope. My friend is not so stupid to misunderstand to that degree.
But of course I know people exaggerate so until I see photos of the newspapers I am also keeping an open mind.
And my friend was not pointing and laughing at the north koreans. As someone who has actually been there he saw first hand that they are real people and that many of the myths we have in the West are not true. That’s why the sporting events thing stuck out for him.