Did this college fail to negotiate in good faith or did this applicant deserve what she got?

[muldoonthief]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Let’s turn this thread into something constructive. Hiring-type people: where’s the line between a reasonable request over and above the salary offered and “yeah, buddy, and here’s your company spaceship key”?

I’m not a hiring manager any more, but here’s my take. This is from an engineering/software POV.

Requests for more money? All part of the dance, and happened all the time. I’d never hold asking that against a potential hire unless they’re asking for double the offer or something - then we’ve got a disconnect. I probably lowballed them a bit anyway expecting a counteroffer. But I’ve most likely got an upper limit on the salary I can offer that came down from HR/Finance, and you’d better be able to walk on water if you think I’m going to go back to them to see if I can get more money.

Potential maternity leave? Here’s a copy of the FMLA and HR policies. Had this once or maybe twice.

I’ve got a pre-planned vacation coming up, can I still take it? The only time I got this request was from people who were currently employed. Both times it wasn’t a big deal, but we were talking one week off a few months in the future.

I’ve got kids/daycare/other responsibilities that mean (for example) I have to be out the door by 4:30 PM on certain days - does that work? No problem, I do too! As long as you’re willing to put in the time & effort, we can work it out.

Telecommuting? We had a department policy restricting telecommuting to like 2 days a week, and I told them no telecommuting for the first 6 months. No one declined the offer because of that.

Can I start (anything more than 3 or 4 weeks) in the future? Got this exactly once - a guy wanted to visit his parents in South Korea before he started - I think he was going to give 2 weeks at his current job, go to SK for 4-6 weeks, then start. I wasn’t crazy about it, but I said yes. He wound up going to SK, then deciding to move back there, forcing us to restart our job search. The really funny thing was when he did come back to the USA like 2 years later, he called me to see if I would still be interested in hiring him. I wasn’t. But a request for a year from now? If I could wait a year, I wouldn’t be hiring.

Can I do less work than everyone else? Never got this one, but yeah, I’d seriously reconsider withdrawing the offer if I did. We went over expected hours & work output during the interview process - if 45 hours a week with occasional 60/wk during crunches is too much for you, then you’re not qualified for this job.

[Melchior]

@Maeglin

Derision of academia and grad students, assertion that you “work in philosophy,” proud holder of only a BA, obligatory link to 100 reasons…all of this can only mean one thing.

Your GRE’s weren’t high enough to get you into a real program and the rest is just sour grapes.

I don’t ‘work in philosophy’. I do some philosophical translation on the side. My full time profession is in communications.

My grades were very good, I should add. It never even occurred to me to pursue philosophy in graduate school. I actually wanted to become a professional photographer.

[Melchior]

@pulykamell

OK, I mostly agree with that (I don’t think it seems to portray ego or entitlement, but it doesn’t matter as it can be construed that way). But I definitely agree with the last sentence. I don’t fault the college for pulling their offer–I think that’s well within their right (although it appears to be unusual, reading this thread). I just object to the characterization of her letter as a list of demands.

All in all, this could have been handled more gracefully all around. This is the type of thing that, as other commentators said, would have been much better handled by the applicant in person rather than via text communication, given the problem of a neutral business-like tone being construed as demanding or aggressive.

The tone of the e-mail is too casual and flippant. It should be more deferential and professionally business-like.

[Melchior]

@muldoonthief

I’m not a hiring manager any more, but here’s my take. This is from an engineering/software POV.

Requests for more money? All part of the dance, and happened all the time. I’d never hold asking that against a potential hire unless they’re asking for double the offer or something - then we’ve got a disconnect. I probably lowballed them a bit anyway expecting a counteroffer. But I’ve most likely got an upper limit on the salary I can offer that came down from HR/Finance, and you’d better be able to walk on water if you think I’m going to go back to them to see if I can get more money.

Potential maternity leave? Here’s a copy of the FMLA and HR policies. Had this once or maybe twice.

I’ve got a pre-planned vacation coming up, can I still take it? The only time I got this request was from people who were currently employed. Both times it wasn’t a big deal, but we were talking one week off a few months in the future.

I’ve got kids/daycare/other responsibilities that mean (for example) I have to be out the door by 4:30 PM on certain days - does that work? No problem, I do too! As long as you’re willing to put in the time & effort, we can work it out.

Telecommuting? We had a department policy restricting telecommuting to like 2 days a week, and I told them no telecommuting for the first 6 months. No one declined the offer because of that.

Can I start (anything more than 3 or 4 weeks) in the future? Got this exactly once - a guy wanted to visit his parents in South Korea before he started - I think he was going to give 2 weeks at his current job, go to SK for 4-6 weeks, then start. I wasn’t crazy about it, but I said yes. He wound up going to SK, then deciding to move back there, forcing us to restart our job search. The really funny thing was when he did come back to the USA like 2 years later, he called me to see if I would still be interested in hiring him. I wasn’t. But a request for a year from now? If I could wait a year, I wouldn’t be hiring.

Can I do less work than everyone else? Never got this one, but yeah, I’d seriously reconsider withdrawing the offer if I did. We went over expected hours & work output during the interview process - if 45 hours a week with occasional 60/wk during crunches is too much for you, then you’re not qualified for this job.

I found this:

http://philosophysmoker.blogspot.com/

[pulykamell]

@Melchior

The tone of the e-mail is too casual and flippant. It should be more deferential and professionally business-like.

Except perhaps for the “let me know what you think” (which to me reads to me as a purposeful softening of the tone a bit), I don’t see it at all as being “too casual” and certainly not “flippant.” I just don’t hear it at all. shrug Yet another reason to do it in person.

[Melchior]

@pulykamell

Except perhaps for the “let me know what you think” (which to me reads to me as a purposeful softening of the tone a bit), I don’t see it at all as being “too casual” and certainly not “flippant.” I just don’t hear it at all. shrug Yet another reason to do it in person.

Although ‘provisions’ started her off in the wrong direction (sounds like demands), ‘let me know what you think’ was far too casual and flippant.

[pulykamell]

And, like I said, I think that’s the part of her email that indicates a softening of tone and an indication of “hey, these are not demands, let’s talk.” That’s actually part of the letter I like.

[Melchior]

@pulykamell

Except perhaps for the “let me know what you think” (which to me reads to me as a purposeful softening of the tone a bit), I don’t see it at all as being “too casual” and certainly not “flippant.” I just don’t hear it at all. shrug Yet another reason to do it in person.

The whole thing was poorly written, almost as if she took no time to think about how to express what she wanted.

[pulykamell]

@Melchior

The whole thing was poorly written, almost as if she took no time to think about how to express what she wanted.

I think she thought about it, but didn’t realize how others might perceive it. It may have been a good idea to run it by a few people, both in academics and outside of academia. It’s easy to have a “tone of voice” in your head when writing something, but somewhat more difficult to dissociate yourself from it and catch things that may be construed as curt, abrupt, demanding, naive, flippant, etc. You can’t account for all readings, but at least you can catch some you might never have thought of, because you’re too close to your own words and frame of mind.

[Melchior]

@pulykamell

I think she thought about it, but didn’t realize how others might perceive it. It may have been a good idea to run it by a few people, both in academics and outside of academia. It’s easy to have a “tone of voice” in your head when writing something, but somewhat more difficult to dissociate yourself from it and catch things that may be construed as curt, abrupt, demanding, naive, flippant, etc. You can’t account for all readings, but at least you can catch some you might never have thought of, because you’re too close to your own words and frame of mind.

Yes, and many here are seeing that and mentioning it.

[pulykamell]

I almost feel, and this was alluded to before, that if this email caught the attention of someone who was gung-go about hiring her, it would have resulted in something more like a “I’m sorry, no can do” type response. But I’m guessing she was already an on-the-fence first pick, so whoever was doing the reading went into it with a more critical eye and their own set of biases.

[UltraVires]

@pulykamell

I think she thought about it, but didn’t realize how others might perceive it. It may have been a good idea to run it by a few people, both in academics and outside of academia. It’s easy to have a “tone of voice” in your head when writing something, but somewhat more difficult to dissociate yourself from it and catch things that may be construed as curt, abrupt, demanding, naive, flippant, etc. You can’t account for all readings, but at least you can catch some you might never have thought of, because you’re too close to your own words and frame of mind.

I think that this advice should be a sticky at the top of one of the threads. As the writer of any document, you personally know what you mean and how you mean it. The reader does not. If you were meaning to be deferential, you may come across as weak. If you were meaning to be confident, you may come across as arrogant.

Always have another person or two read your document and see if their impression was your intended impression. The writer may read it 100 times and not see the glaring error because in his or her mind the tone is implied.

ETA: Posts on this board are the same way. But, obviously, we don’t go to the trouble of having peer review. It does highlight the read why many arguments and misunderstandings occur.

[Acsenray]

I don’t buy that this was a simple miscommunication. They had already gone through several levels of the hiring process in person and not. Somebody torpedoed this hiring. Either because, as was suggested above, someone wasn’t too enthusiastic about her in the first place, or some other reason.

[Melchior]

@Acsenray

I don’t buy that this was a simple miscommunication. They had already gone through several levels of the hiring process in person and not. Somebody torpedoed this hiring. Either because, as was suggested above, someone wasn’t too enthusiastic about her in the first place, or some other reason.

Perhaps she did not mention these ‘provisions’ before, and when she did they took exception. They need somebody sooner rather than later.

[Acsenray]

That’s where you simply say “no, we need you to start right away.”

[Melchior]

@Acsenray

That’s where you simply say “no, we need you to start right away.”

Right, so I don’t get it. You don’t spring that on them now…

[RTFirefly]

@Ulf_the_Unwashed

*She’d be a terrible colleague. If she has no more than three new preps a year, then someone else is probably going to have to have five.

I don’t get this one. He colleagues will all be more experienced, and between them they will have already taught all the courses the department offers, or close enough to it so it doesn’t matter. Limiting her new preps still leaves everyone else with zero new preps.

[raspberry_hunter]

@pulykamell

All in all, this could have been handled more gracefully all around. This is the type of thing that, as other commentators said, would have been much better handled by the applicant in person rather than via text communication, given the problem of a neutral business-like tone being construed as demanding or aggressive.

Yeah, this was my response to the letter – my first visceral response, upon reading it, was, heck no, and if she did this when applying to my company, we might or might not have rescinded the offer, but we’d have seriously thought about it, and hoped she didn’t accept.

And yet none of her demands are really that unreasonable to at least ask for, and the end of the letter makes it clear that she’s trying to be reasonable.

If she’d said this in person or even on the phone, I think it would have gone a lot more smoothly on both sides. First of all, her tone would not have come across as quite as demanding. Second, she would have been able to read voice/body cues from the person she was talking to, and hopefully recognize when she was going too far (“oh heck, they seem really forbidding when I ask about reducing my teaching load, maybe I’d better dial that down a bit”) and when she could lean in a little further (“they seem pretty amenable to raising my salary slightly, though…”)

[Maeglin]

At the very least, one can suss out first whether some of the terms are even negotiable. If it’s pretty clear that the department has no budget, then obviously asking for 20% more is a non-starter. But this can be less than obvious if there haven’t been any new TT hires in the department for a long time.

It was much easier when I was in the private sector. All you needed to know was how well a prospective business unit was doing and what the market reference zone was for the job title. All departments had leeway to grant perks here and there, but it was easy to get a sense of what you thought was achievable up front. Sometimes negotiations would fail, but it wasn’t usually because someone got completely blindsided.

But the labor market where I came from was pretty fluid. I don’t know a person alive who thinks that academic recruitment is anything other than insane and dysfunctional.

[Chronos]

Personally, I don’t think that it’s her tone that makes her sound entitled; I think that the content of her requests does that just fine on its own. What she’s saying basically amounts to “I want the paycheck, but I don’t want to do the work”.

On the maternity leave thing, if she had already discussed it and just wanted clarification in writing, she should have said so. Asking for something in writing is always reasonable. What she wrote, without that context, just sounds odd at best.

On the “complete my postdoc”, if she had a specific project or projects that she thought she could bring to completion and publication in that time, she should have listed them. Without that, it’s just more “I don’t want to do the work that you need done”.

If she had an offer from another school, she should have said so. “I have another offer” always strengthens your position, even if it’s one you’d prefer not to take.