Did this college fail to negotiate in good faith or did this applicant deserve what she got?

[Learjeff]

You have the facts wrong. She was not fired. You can’t be fired before you’re hired.

Maybe it says more about the school than W. We have one data point, and shouldn’t try to infer too much from it.

If it is typical, what it says is that few candidates for academic posts have a leg to stand on and shouldn’t try to negotiate. That would be sad, though. As I said above, it’s far better to get things on the record than to rely on what’s mentioned in interviews. That is standard business practice in the US, at least in engineering and I’d be willing to bet in business as well. Why should Academia be any different?

[Melchior]

@Learjeff

You have the facts wrong. She was not fired. You can’t be fired before you’re hired.

Maybe it says more about the school than W. We have one data point, and shouldn’t try to infer too much from it.

If it is typical, what it says is that few candidates for academic posts have a leg to stand on and shouldn’t try to negotiate. That would be sad, though. As I said above, it’s far better to get things on the record than to rely on what’s mentioned in interviews. That is standard business practice in the US, at least in engineering and I’d be willing to bet in business as well. Why should Academia be any different?

It’s all about the how…that’s my point. You don’t just rattle off a list of demands as if they meant nothing…she was flippant and seems to have an excessive sense of entitlement.

[raspberry_hunter]

@Algher

The bulleted list was poor, sending via email is fine.

I just watched my spouse negotiate her way for a full professorship with an endowed chair via email - nobody mailed anything. In addition, the offer (and counter offer from her current school) came via email as well.

Nothing wrong with form - it was the content.

Wow, congratulations!

@Melchior

No, it should have been submitted on paper in a letter. Form matters.

Form does matter, and if I got a paper letter in the middle of job negotiations I’d be more likely to decide the candidate was so super clueless I didn’t even want to bother with her (or him). A paper letter says, “I am taking this super seriously, I am going to act as if we are formal strangers, and these demands are very important to me.” Whereas that is exactly what you don’t want to convey – you want to convey, “I want to work with you on this.” Which is much better addressed through an email or even better, in person:

@Enginerd

This is absolutely right. When you have a list of pie-in-the-sky things that you’d like but don’t necessarily expect to get, a phone call lets you talk about them one at a time and gauge the institution’s response to each item. Maybe there’s no room to move on the base salary, but there’s summer funding available from the department to teach an independent study or to attend a conference. Maybe the pre-tenure sabbatical request leads to a discussion of how important it is to have this person teaching every semester - then a smart candidate doesn’t ask for a delayed start, but focuses on limiting new preps so she can do a better job with the classes she’s got. Negotiations are a give and take, and it’s a lot easier to know where you stand when you can gauge your counterpart’s reactions in real-time.

Yes, THIS.

[Acsenray]

@Melchior

Not only was she not hired, she was fired *before *she was hired. Doesn’t that say something?

What it does or does not say is the topic at hand.

While it’s not clear to any of us what actually was behind what happened to W, I think it’s become pretty clear the conclusory opinions you have doggedly repeated in the face of flat contradiction and a worldview that hasn’t been seen since an E. M. Forster novel (and probably hadn’t been espoused in real life since before he wrote) make it less than worthwhile to engage you on this subject.

[Melchior]

@raspberry_hunter

Wow, congratulations!

Form does matter, and if I got a paper letter in the middle of job negotiations I’d be more likely to decide the candidate was so super clueless I didn’t even want to bother with her (or him). A paper letter says, “I am taking this super seriously, I am going to act as if we are formal strangers, and these demands are very important to me.” Whereas that is exactly what you don’t want to convey – you want to convey, “I want to work with you on this.” Which is much better addressed through an email or even better, in person:

If someone actually bothered to send written paper correspondence I would assume they are serious and sincere. A casual e-mail? I don’t think so.

Also, I believe we may assume that it was the e-mail *itself *that led to the withdrawal of the offer.

[BetsQ]

@Enginerd

I’m not W, obviously, but I am a post-doc in the sciences and I can answer this for an equivalent job in my own field. It’s not an attractive job to me, but a year ago I would have applied for it. Right now I’m in a relatively secure and well-funded position, so if it came up now, I wouldn’t apply. In two years, my secure funding runs out - a year from now (assuming nothing’s changed with my current position), I’ll apply for jobs like the one at Nazareth again. It’s just a fact of life, given the uncertainty of the market, to apply for anything that’s going to let you pay the bills for the next few years.

Whether I’d take the job is a different question, and it would depend largely on other options. But damn near every academic these days has applied for jobs they’re not all that interested in.

The question Enginerd answered here was directed at me originally, and my answer is pretty similar to his. I went through a brief period of applying for academic jobs before I bailed ship, and I absolutely applied to jobs that were a bad fit geographically or otherwise. I’ve definitely watched friends apply to all sorts of crazy things.

[Saint_Cad]

@even_sven

Maternity leave is not a given. In a previous position, I was told informally that the policy was 12 weeks of maternity leave at full pay. I was pretty pleased, as I was expecting at the time. There were several expecting ladies in the office, and we were all so happy with our organizations generous policy.

Several months later, when I let my work know I was expecting, I learned that only employees with a year of seniority were eligible for maternity leave, the year and a half of full-time consulting I had before did not count, and I was left with disability, sick leave, and vacation time. Furthermore, FMLA only kicks in after a year.

So yu didn’t read the actual, written, will stand up before a judge policy and took someone’s word for it? Who’s fault is that?

[Ranger_Jeff]

Let me toss this into the mix:

If W had NOT named the college, the blog discussion could have taken an “You see what happened to me; learn from this” or a “Who was in error here?” theme. By naming the college, it adds “Look what those bastards did to me!” theme to it.

[ThisUsernameIsForbidden]

I’m wondering how many of the “she deserved it” posters here have applied to academic jobs.
I’m guessing not too many to zero.

[Enginerd]

Deserve’s got nothing to do with it.

I’ve applied to dozens of academic jobs, and I don’t blame the college for withdrawing the offer. I also spent the seven years before grad school hiring engineers to work in a small, demanding office - I needed people who were comfortable with and could communicate well with both government regulators in an office and with construction crews in the field. Finding somebody who fits the organization you’re hiring for is awfully important, and I’d rather pass on a candidate who throws up red flags than hire her and have to replace her after a year or two. Everything in her email points toward a mismatch between her expectations and those of the school.

That doesn’t mean she deserves any stress or suffering that withdrawing the offer might have caused. But she’s going to look at all her options and eliminate those that don’t fit in with her plans. Why wouldn’t the school do the same thing?

[even_sven]

@Saint_Cad

So yu didn’t read the actual, written, will stand up before a judge policy and took someone’s word for it? Who’s fault is that?

Have you ever been to a job interview? You generally aren’t demanding citations from the employee manual. In my case it was a genuine mistake on the part of the HR rep, who is a great person, so I’m not really upset.

But the point is that one of the “outrageous” requests by the woman in the OP was to get the maternity leave policy they discussed in writing. Which is a very smart move.

[ThisUsernameIsForbidden]

Everything in her email points toward a mismatch between her expectations and those of the school.

I’m not buying this. I know that’s the University’s stated position, but it’s not the real reason, which is just that someone got offended by her audacity.

[Enginerd]

It’s not the university’s stated position - as far as I know, the university hasn’t said anything publicly about this issue. It’s just my opinion on why the offer was withdrawn.

[Melchior]

@ThisUsernameIsForbidden

I’m not buying this. I know that’s the University’s stated position, but it’s not the real reason, which is just that someone got offended by her audacity.

You have to be conscious that what you are doing is beyond what is customary to be audacious. I don’t believe that she was aware. Everything points the other way.

[Ulf_the_Unwashed]

@ThisUsernameIsForbidden

I’m not buying this. I know that’s the University’s stated position, but it’s not the real reason, which is just that someone got offended by her audacity.

Well, this implies that no one has ever successfully negotiated with Nazareth for anything, and I for one find this very unlikely. It seems probable to me that new professors at a place like Nazareth are always negotiating themselves a small bump in salary, some covering of moving expenses, things like that. I think it isn’t that W asked or asked in an “audacious” manner, as that the specific requests hit a third rail at the school by appearing to devalue what they value quite highly.

I’m currently on a search committee for a new rector at my church. There are all kinds of things that are or could be negotiable for the new person…salary, housing allowance, amount of office support, etc. if the person we find says, you know, I don’t wNt to have anything to do with putting the bulletin together (a task the last guy enjoyed and was good at), big deal: if we like that person, we will be happy to work around that . But if the person says, you know, outreach doesn’t really interest me, it will interfere with my theological studies and make it harder to prepare my sermons, well, that wouldn’t make us happy at all, because outreach is a very important part of who we believe ourselves to be, and while lay people will continue to do it regardless, the congregation would be distinctly displeased with someone who did not want to be involved in it. That candidate would be hitting the third rail; it has nothing to do with “audacity” or actually with negotiating at all.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@ThisUsernameIsForbidden

I’m not buying this.

I am buying it. It makes sense to me, as someone who actually teaches at a small teaching college.

[ThisUsernameIsForbidden]

This same reaction reminds me of inquiring about a position. They ask you how much you are looking for, in terms of salary, and you reply and you never hear from them again. This kind of thing happens all the time, but it’s not courteous or professional. The proper thing to do is to continue the conversation, whether that be a rejection or an acceptance. The same kind of discourtesy happens within organizations. A subordinate sends his supervisor an email with a question, and the supervisor doesn’t respond, because he doesn’t have to. It’s simply unprofessional, discourteous behavior.

[ThisUsernameIsForbidden]

@Thudlow_Boink

I am buying it. It makes sense to me, as someone who actually teaches at a small teaching college.

It makes sense to you that, by asking for more benefits, she revealed something about herself that indicated she was not the person they thought she was? What was it about her that indicated she wouldn’t be a good fit? Was it simply that she asked for more?

[usedtobe]

@ThisUsernameIsForbidden

It makes sense to you that, by asking for more benefits, she revealed something about herself that indicated she was not the person they thought she was? What was it about her that indicated she wouldn’t be a good fit? Was it simply that she asked for more?

This thread is approaching 500 posts.

What she did, whether it was too much, phrased improperly, in the wrong format, ad nauseum, has been covered repeatedly.
At this point asking it be re-hashed is pointless; sides have been chosen, arguments made, and the lines are still formed.

[Saint_Cad]

@even_sven

Have you ever been to a job interview? You generally aren’t demanding citations from the employee manual. In my case it was a genuine mistake on the part of the HR rep, who is a great person, so I’m not really upset.

When you got hired, you should have got a manual. Did you read it? Did you go to the person and at that time say, “Ummm, I was told something different.”