Did this college fail to negotiate in good faith or did this applicant deserve what she got?

[Acsenray]

No, she did not say that she did not want to start right away. She merely inquired about the possibility of delaying her start date. You have an extremely odd, extremist view of language, intent, and desire.
Close to zero employees get exactly the kinds if Hobbs combined with exactly the kinds if working conditions they want.

Similarly, close to zero employers fill a position with someone who mentally, emotionally, and spiritually fill every last desired quality to exactly the right degree.

Employers, employees, jobs, and workers are not machine parts that come in a limited variety and can expect a perfect fit.

You get close and then do a lot if wiggling to make the fit as comfortable as you can.

The fact that the college made the offer meant that they believed that after an extensive search, they believed hat this candidate was the best – not perfect – fit.

In return, W was just testing the wiggle. And it very well might have been the case that even without any more wiggle, this job would have been good enough on the terms offered.

And that’s what the college would have been interested in – “We find you to be the best of the candidates we have. Now, let us know whether we’re the best of the options you have.”

When she tested the wiggle, what they should have wanted to know – given the entire history if their interaction – was “no, we can’t budge on these issues. We want to know whether you still think we’re your best fit” … The implication being that “since we extended you the offer, we’ve already decided you’re our best fit.”

Now what exactly happened here between the two is the question under debate. The stuff about formal letters and etiquette is just rank nonsense. Those are values of centuries past, if they ever were the applicable values in a faculty negotiation. Your worldview about what universities want and what academics are like is absolutely bizarre and alien.

[you_with_the_face]

@Melchior

It may not matter to *you *‘whether she was in a position of power or not’ but it matters to those involved.

Yes, and your point? This goes without saying.

Perhaps you need to consider that might doesn’t necessarily make right. Just in another thread, you complained about the horrors of corporate buzzwords taking over the English language and getting in the way of effective communication. Style over substance, right? Would you complain if Fortunate 500 companies started firing people because they failed to adopt the speech of their executive overlords? Instead of saying “incentivize our products”, any poor sap that would says “promote our products” is asking for a pink slip. Would this be acceptable to you because of who has the power? I don’t think so, but maybe you’ll surprise me.

I don’t see why you’re not appreciating how close this situation comes to that. The college is free to rescind its offer for any reason, just as a company is free to fire an employee who eschews buzz words. But this doesn’t make them above critique. If they college had any doubts that W fit in with the culture of the organization, then it was wrong of them to make the offer.

[Melchior]

@Acsenray

No, she did not say that she did not want to start right away. She merely inquired about the possibility of delaying her start date. You have an extremely odd, extremist view of language, intent, and desire.
Close to zero employees get exactly the kinds if Hobbs combined with exactly the kinds if working conditions they want.

Similarly, close to zero employers fill a position with someone who mentally, emotionally, and spiritually fill every last desired quality to exactly the right degree.

Employers, employees, jobs, and workers are not machine parts that come in a limited variety and can expect a perfect fit.

You get close and then do a lot if wiggling to make the fit as comfortable as you can.

The fact that the college made the offer meant that they believed that after an extensive search, they believed hat this candidate was the best – not perfect – fit.

In return, W was just testing the wiggle. And it very well might have been the case that even without any more wiggle, this job would have been good enough on the terms offered.

And that’s what the college would have been interested in – “We find you to be the best of the candidates we have. Now, let us know whether we’re the best of the options you have.”

When she tested the wiggle, what they should have wanted to know – given the entire history if their interaction – was “no, we can’t budge on these issues. We want to know whether you still think we’re your best fit” … The implication being that “since we extended you the offer, we’ve already decided you’re our best fit.”

Now what exactly happened here between the two is the question under debate. The stuff about formal letters and etiquette is just rank nonsense. Those are values of centuries past, if they ever were the applicable values in a faculty negotiation. Your worldview about what universities want and what academics are like is absolutely bizarre and alien.

She did not display appropriate professional behavior. You may think manners don’t matter or are old-fashioned, but they are not. Just a couple of years ago, I saw a young couple out to dinner at a nice restaurant. After a while, I noticed the young man down on one knee proposing. The young lady was beaming!

Some things don’t go out of fashion. The woman TT applicant didn’t understand the form and proper behavior. She did not show that she was taking it seriously enough, in my opinion.

[Acsenray]

@Melchior

She did not display appropriate professional behavior. You may think manners don’t matter or are old-fashioned, but they are not. Just a couple of years ago, I saw a young couple out to dinner at a nice restaurant. After a while, I noticed the young man down on one knee proposing. The young lady was beaming!

Some things don’t go out of fashion. The woman TT applicant didn’t understand the form and proper behavior. She did not show that she was taking it seriously enough, in my opinion.

It is clear to me that you have absolutely no clue about what is considered professional behavior in American universities today. In fact, I have a hard time believing that YOU believe much of what you’re saying.

[Melchior]

@Acsenray

It is clear to me that you have absolutely no clue about what is considered professional behavior in American universities today. In fact, I have a hard time believing that YOU believe much of what you’re saying.

Well, the offer was withdrawn. It’s more likely that I am right than you are, nicht wahr? You have to act like you actually want the job and give a damn. She was all about ‘ME’.

It is possible that this institution is very conservative, and she clearly did not fit in. It never hurts to be *more *formal when in doubt.

[Enginerd]

@Melchior

Well, the offer was withdrawn. It’s more likely that I am right than you are, nicht wahr? You have to act like you actually want the job and give a damn. She was all about ‘ME’.

It is possible that this institution is very conservative, and she clearly did not fit in. It never hurts to be *more *formal when in doubt.

I work in a university now and I’ve hired people in the past, and I think the problem is that she was too formal, sending an email rather than picking up the phone. What you describe as the university environment has little (maybe even nothing) in common with my experiences here.

[Acsenray]

@Melchior

Well, the offer was withdrawn. It’s more likely that I am right than you are, nicht wahr? .

The offer was withdrawn and thus any outlandish fictional social etiquette standard you pull out of an 18th century novel is more likely correct than I am?

No. Nope. Since you seem to prefer randomly sprinkled German phrases, gar nicht.

What’s far more likely is that there was a sexist asshole in the executive suite who felt his manhood shrivel at the idea of such a woman asserting herself and was unable to achieve erection until he had punished her and banished her from the college.

Now, there is no reason to believe that what I said there is true, but it is far more likely than the fantasy of Edwardian etiquette and letters written with a quill and doctors of philosophy tugging on their forelocks that you have dreamed up.

[Melchior]

@Enginerd

I work in a university now and I’ve hired people in the past, and I think the problem is that she was too formal, sending an email rather than picking up the phone. What you describe as the university environment has little (maybe even nothing) in common with my experiences here.

What is your department? These things matter!

[Melchior]

@Acsenray

The offer was withdrawn and thus any outlandish fictional social etiquette standard you pull out of an 18th century novel is more likely correct than I am?

No. Nope. Since you seem to prefer randomly sprinkled German phrases, gar nicht.

What’s far more likely is that there was a sexist asshole on the executive suite who felt his manhood shrivel at the idea of such a woman asserting herself and was unable to achieve erection until he had punished her and banished her from the college.

Now, there is no reason to believe that what I said there is true, bug it is far more likely than the fantasy of Edwardian etiquette and letters written with a quill and doctors if philosophy tugging on their forelocks that you have dreamed up.

I don’t think so. Unmöglich.

[Frylock]

It doesn’t matter what department Enginerd is in, because I would guess that philosophy departments tend to be the most informal departments on the typical university campus.

That’s not saying much–particularly formal formality is really only noticeable, in my experience, in business and law schools anyway.

[Enginerd]

I’ve been in either geology or civil engineering departments, depending on the institution.

[Melchior]

@Frylock

It doesn’t matter what department Enginerd is in, because I would guess that philosophy departments tend to be the most informal departments on the typical university campus.

That’s not saying much–particularly formal formality is really only noticeable, in my experience, in business and law schools anyway.

But the people hiring her may not all be from her department. And she’s not in the department yet. The initiation process is separate, and more formality may be expected, just like into a fraternity.

[Acsenray]

And the people hiring her might be time travelers from an alien colony far, far into the future where using your tail to grasp your clay tablet and stylus is as horrifying a breach of etiquette as murdering your grandmother is to us today.

[Melchior]

@Acsenray

And the people hiring her might be time travelers from an alien colony far, far into the future where using your tail to grasp your clay tablet and stylus is as horrifying a breach of etiquette as murdering your grandmother is to us today.

I am assuming that several people are involved, and not all from that department. Deans and others are involved in hires. And to repeat: there is a difference between being in the department and getting hired.

[Learjeff]

@Melchior

It’s all about the how…that’s my point. You don’t just rattle off a list of demands as if they meant nothing…she was flippant and seems to have an excessive sense of entitlement.

Keep repeating it! Maybe that’ll make it true.

@Melchior

She did not display appropriate professional behavior. You may think manners don’t matter or are old-fashioned, but they are not.

There was nothing at all unprofessional or impolite about her counteroffer.

@Melchior

Well, the offer was withdrawn. It’s more likely that I am right than you are, nicht wahr? You have to act like you actually want the job and give a damn. She was all about ‘ME’.

You may be content to make sweeping generalizations based on one data point. I’m not.

But the point that she could have researched the standard policies is a valid one. It might have saved her the position.

[Rick]

College: we want to hire a teacher
AppliCAN’T: well I don’t want to teach that much, and I need time off for this and that.
College: Never mind

I’m not seeing a problem. I sure as hell would not hire a teacher that doesn’t want to teach.

[Acsenray]

But that’s not what happened. You skipped the part where they evaluated her against all other candidates and then offered her the job. At that point you are way beyond the “generally fit for this position” stage and into the “now finalize the details” stage.

[Rick]

Bottom line is she didn’t want to teach as much as the other profs, wanted to be paid more (which makes her effective pay even higher), wanted time off etc.

I have hired people in the private sector and an appliCAN’T like this would never get hired by me. She is squarely in the never mind, don’t call us we will call you territory.

[Acsenray]

@Rick

Bottom line is she didn’t want to teach as much as the other profs, wanted to be paid more (which makes her effective pay even higher).

You have zero factual basis for either of those conclusions.

[Acsenray]

And your use of the pejorative “applican’t” reveals that you are creating these impressions of this person entirely based on your personal prejudices.