Did this dog need to be shot or not? (video)

In My Humble Opinion
61

two words:

Darla Napora

She and her hubby Greg opted to move from Yakima, WA to Pacifica, CA, because Yakima banned pit bulls. Then then joined San Francisco’s branch of BADRAP (bay Area Pit owners who stated objective is to prove pit bulls are not dangerous…that they are “Nanny dogs”

Darla was sleeping with her landshark (pit bull) in her bed, as she had done for years…She was several months prego.

Greg come home from work, and finds his wife was mauled and disemboweled by the pit bull. The 911 EMT’s then discovered the Nanny dog ripped her unborn baby fetus out of her womb, and crushed it to death…

Greg, to this day, says it was a fluke, and still does not blame the pit bull…in fact, he had his wifes (Darla) and his beloved (Euthanized) pit bull, buried in the same casket.

It is a very unique name…google “Darla Napora”

I can just as easily call you a hater, - a hater of men, women, elderly, children, and even the fetus unborn in a pit bull owners womb…not to mention the countless cats, dogs, Llamas, and many, many full grown horses…all of which are killed on a routine basis.

600 USA cities regulate pit bulls, as well as all bases at all USA Air Force, Marine, Navy and Army bases. Entire Canadian Provinces, as well as dozens of entire nations, including the UK - which is worth noting as that is where Staffordshires originated for bull baiting. Put Staffordshire in pit; add full sized bull: Voila, you now have a “pit bull”. Not a Nanny Dog.

I will ask a quick poll of the very smart Dopers here:

Given, the ATTS (American Temperament Test) for canines, tests dogs whose owners VOLUNTARILY bring their dogs in for the test. There is absolutely zero random about the dogs chosen. Statisticians vois the results of these type of non-random tests, referring to them as Quota Sampling (pit bull owners objectively need to improve the BadRap that they perceive their land sharks get (google Darla Napora).

Current ATTS scores for pit bull type dogs:
american pit bull 86%
american bulldog 84.8%
american staffordshire 83.9%
bull terrier 90.4%
staffordshire bull terrier 89.6%

Current ATTS scores for a few popular breeds of dogs in America:
cocker spaniel 81.9%
collie 79.7%
beagle 80.3%
chihuahua 71.1%
labrador retriever 92.3%
golden retriever 84.6%
german shepherd 84.2%
jack russell 84.1%
mutt 86%
pomeranian 75.8%
pug 90.9%
standard poodle 86%

Of the 30,000+ dogs tested by the ATTS to date, 82.4% have passed.

The breed of dog with the overall lowest passing score was the skye terrier at 37.5%.

This should speak volumes about the ATTS test: in more than 30 year, a Skye Terrier has never killed a human, nor caused single or multiple amputations.

Carl Herkstroeter, who runs the ATTS since 1990, states on the ATTS website:

“Comparing scores with other dogs is not a good idea” and the test “takes into consideration each breed’s inherent tendencies”. Cocker spaniels are evaluated against a cocker spaniel standard, not against german shepherds (or at least in theory, they are not supposed to), yet pit bull advocates would have you believe that all dogs are evaluated against one another."

end of quote.

The test acknowledges that breed of dog (hereditary of purpose) is factored into the dog’s performance and score, yet dogs are not tested in the presence of other dogs. This is especially critical with dogs that were bred to fight.

(Well, doesn’t that wreak of Breed Specific rules)?

The following are verbatim quotes from a pit bull forum called pitbulltalk, about their own experience with their pit bull taking the ATTS :
hey21jude replies
“Hi Leslie! Glad to hear he would at least pass part of the test. I think we’d do OK for the other parts too. As long as I’m with him, he doesn’t go into “panic mode”. I would love to sign him up as an APBT just to get another passed test for the stats(If we pass).
Thanks again for all the info guys!”

(The above post is a prime example of non-random Quota Sampling)

“Doja did great and passed with flying colors. I was so proud of her.
She was the only dog tested there today that wanted to eat the threatening stranger - so she got high marks for that.
It was funny - most of the other dogs (Belgians included) only looked at him, or ignored him, Even when he was hollering and bashing a stick on the ground. But Doja hit the end of the lead like the little freight train she is and was telling him that he had best stay far away from her Mommy NOW!! Some of the people watching (including some of the testers) actually applauded a bit when she did that.”
"While we were int the ring waiting to start Dexter decided to pee! Luckily none of the testers saw it but everyone else did and they were laughing and saying “shhhhh…dont say anything!”
“Yes, he peed on the umbrella. And Rob captured it in a photo. I’m still so embarrassed. I was sure they’d fail us for that. But apparently they’re not looking for manners in this test–just responses to various stimuli.” “she didn’t even know it was happening till after I yelled NOOOOO!”
“another pit bull mix dog that was with us that day, paige, barked and lunged and kicked up the dust till the guy was gone, and she’s not protection trained at all. she passed just fine, though. they actually want the dog to identify threatening behavior–your dog gets lower marks if it fails to respond at all, like doc.”

(The above post shows how dangerously absurd the ATTS test is)

pitbulltalk mnp13
The CGC is meant to be a test of training and manners, the TT is meant to be a test of temperament. ideally you don’t “train the test” for the TT.
you really don’t need to worry about that because when you fill out your application for the test they ask you if your dog is trained in schutzhund or other sports, and they take that into account when evaluating. so if the dog lights up at the stranger more than a “regular” dog might, that will be considered.
another pit bull mix dog that was with us that day, paige, barked and lunged and kicked up the dust till the guy was gone, and she’s not protection trained at all. she passed just fine, though.

(simply amazing that any nutter would passing this off as being a statistically accurate method of testing pit bulls in comparison to other breed.)

Before you read the next two convos’ keep in mind that at no point in the ATTS is the canine tested without its owner present

Experienced “responsible” pit bull owner, ATTS tester Leslie Haller advises pitbulltalk member hey21jude on the ATTS.
“I’m an ATTS provisional tester. Dexter would certainly pass the neutral and friendly stranger parts of the test if he acts like he did when I met him. I believe they record mixed breeds as mixed breeds. You can certainly get away with calling him an apbt.”
Leslie Haller is a school teacher.

hey21jude replies
“Hi Leslie! Glad to hear he would at least pass part of the test. I think we’d do OK for the other parts too. As long as I’m with him, he doesn’t go into “panic mode”. I would love to sign him up as an APBT just to get another passed test for the stats(If we pass).
Thanks again for all the info guys!”

Proof of Quota Sampling (meeting an objective):

new pitbulltalk member tradewind introduces herself to the forum.
“My name is Monique and I live in MA near Cape Cod. I have 3 Amstaffs, 1 male and 2 females. I’m active in showing, starting out in Obedience, and I am an apprentice tester with the ATTS, and I am very active in BSL.”

(It is inappropriate for ATTS testers to be active in anti- Breed Specific Legislation)

2005 lisa mawson
“We are very close to having a higher % pass rate than GOLDEN RETRIEVERS! Of course this is no secret to us, but lets not KEEP it a secret!”

(They set a goal and they achieved it. The pit bulls have surpassed the goldens…Simply Laughable)

Absolute proof of Quota Sampling for desired improved stat’, from an ATTS tester:
pbf Red
Personally I test only pit bulls I know are going to pass , mine or belonging to other people, because if a dog does not pass it hurts the breed statistics ( although it looks like they are not updating the numbers often).
…

pbsmiles sarallyn
The ATTS is really helping to keep this breed in one piece… without them, i’m sure we would be in some deep sh**
good read, thanks for posting.

(The pit bull apologia knows EXACTLY what it is doing)

cite:

I now ask upper IQ Doper who have experience with Statistics, to inform either Cougar58 (me) or Sailboat, that one of our boats must not have both oars in water.

62

Sailboat, FYI. I am not implying you are not intelligent. based on your Moniker, I assume you excel in Sailboating.

My sister had a 28 foot Dawson; my cousin has a 60 ft (model unknown)…my sister talked me into taking the required Coast Guard Captains license training…I bailed out after several weeks.

You likely know more about Sailing than I ever will.

However, I excel in SPC (statistics)… My work the past 10 yrs with a Big 3 Auto firm, has required constant training in SPC.

If I ever suggested that it would be a remotely legit means of arriving at an accurate CpK pr PpK, by allowing the suppliers to only present me with their BOB (best of best) parts, versus randomly sampling 300 pcs for a study…I would be laughed out of the office and into the unemployment line.

So pls don’t take this personal, but you are very, very, very mistaken to believe there is anything accurate or unbiased in the ATTS test. Your boat is out of the water, when it comes to SPC.

Here is an example of unbiased & accurate statistics, with a cite:
6 US Surgeons Annals of Surgery

Objective: Maiming and death due to dog bites are uncommon but preventable tragedies. We postulated that patients admitted to a level I trauma center with dog bites would have severe injuries and that the gravest injuries would be those caused by pit bulls.
Design: We reviewed the medical records of patients admitted to our level I trauma center with dog bites during a 15-year period. We determined the demographic characteristics of the patients, their outcomes, and the breed and characteristics of the dogs that caused the injuries.
Results: Our Trauma and Emergency Surgery Services treated 228 patients with dog bite injuries; for 82 of those patients, the breed of dog involved was recorded (29 were injured by pit bulls). Compared with attacks by other breeds of dogs, attacks by pit bulls were associated with a higher median Injury Severity Scale score (4 vs. 1; P = 0.002), a higher risk of an admission Glasgow Coma Scale score of 8 or lower (17.2% vs. 0%; P = 0.006), higher median hospital charges ($10,500 vs. $7200; P = 0.003), and a higher risk of death (10.3% vs. 0%; P = 0.041).
Conclusions: Attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs. Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the US mortality rates related to dog bites.

63

#1. Dog was in the garage. Not a threat to anyone.
#2. Idiot police officers taser the creature without a reason while it was on a catch pole which it had calmly walked into.
#3. Idiots shoot dog.

Fabulous display of idiocy at work.

All this “terror” over a dog walking on a street. Hilarious. Not particularly challenging to decide which is the more stupid of the two species.

64

my experience with pit bulls or mixed pit bulls is statistically limited over a half century of observation. With that said, I have witnessed many extreme reactions by these dogs I’ve not seen in other breeds. They are quicker to spool into attack mode, they don’t stop when they go into attack mode, and they do a lot of damage. Other breeds will snap at people and immediately withdraw. Sadly, the people I warned (about their dog) had to learn it the hard way.

65

To clarify, when i do an SPC study, its of 300 sequential, but RANDOMLY selected, parts. Not 300 out of sequence parts.

I randomly determined when i start collecting data on 300 sequential parts critical dimensions.

No supplier to any customer is allowed to cherry pick only the best 300 parts gathered over a year.

66

Dogsbite.org does not “just scan the web for pit bulls”

Cite

They include fatal attacks by all breeds, incleding Rotts, GS, Husky, Akita, Chow

Please examine the above 5 yrs of data, and list non pit bull fatal attacks that were omitted

67

For the ATTS test to be accurate

It would have to randomly select 300 Sequential pit bulls. Right now only select pit bull owners have their PBs tested…oh and did i mention, the owner must pay a fee for the testing.

It would also have to test the dog without it owner present…do you want me to cite the number or percentage of off property fatals by PBs without the owner present?

It would have to include agression as part of its test.

The testers would have to be certifed and auditted…no testers who “own pit bulls and are involved in anti BSL laws”. Nor testers who stated objective is to improve the image of PBs having a badrap. Nor testers who are lienent on any breed.

Finally, its results should be verified against year end fatal and loss of limb attacks data. Look at how pit bulls have killed close to 300 people, in the same time frame the Skye Terrior, has caused neither one fatality, nor amputation…nor death of large livestock. Yet the ATTS rankings list the Skye as public enemy #1 at 37%, while pit bulls are near the top at 87% passing.

68

And did you also notice that most were “family” PETS, people deciding to keep particular breeds that are* Known* to be potentially more aggressive?

People choosing to keep such breeds, must also accept the risk. Run your numbers on your argument again. Currently, it’s poor.

Then run your numbers on a population basis. Compare to homicides by gun. Should we outlaw guns? Or should we outlaw stupidity? As was aptly demonstrated in the piss poor manner in which the “situation” with a non threatening canine was handled.

69

Poor logic on all counts.

Do you really want me to cite the dozens and dozens (last yr pbs scored 22 of 31 fatals by all breeds) where the owner, and even neighbors, told police the pit bull was never previously threatening…until the day it was.

A gun has never, against it owners wishes, bolted out the front door, chased a human down, and killed it. Consult an insurance company…they employ highly compensated, highly educated, statisticians, called actuaries…most will not insure your house if you own a pit bull..yet they dont blink an eye at gun owners, given there are more guns in the usa than people.

Pit bulls are well under 10% of the total canine population…yet for the past 7 years, they average 66% of fatals.

Google Pareto…i dont have the patience to explain it here.

Less than 10% of the population (pit bulls) score 2/3rds of all fatals. In two of these years, it was over 70%

70

Pit bullshit. Pbs have both the highest # of fatals on their owners, as they do off property.

I have no concerns when a pit bull kills it adult owner…aka Darwin theory at work.. (like Michael Cook of Tuscon last year, who died after his Nanny dog amputated his arms and legs, and he totally exhausted the counties supply of his type of blood…200 pints before he died…and Mr Hines of Burnettsville, In…both killed by their own pit bull in their house…both later had friends and neighbors that said not only did both owners treat their dogs lovingly, but said their own children played with both pit bulls.

My concern is with off property fatals, which pit bulls lead over all breeds…sure, the owners accepts known risks, but why should the owners neighbors.?

71

For instance, the 34 yr old adult male killed in Fresno last week ( one of two fatal pit bull attacks that week) was killed by his neighbors pit bulls when they mistakenly went out an opened door…what if the police had arrived first, and sucuumbed to your Nanny Dog until proven otherwise bs.

The pb in that video was pulling the ac officer…despite the catch pole, it was in charge. Go back and look at my video links, that show pit bulls pulling cars and even a van. Then try real hard to understand Commerce City banned pit bulls seven yrs prior. They could legally have euthanized it on that violation alone.

72

“usually top off at around 65-70 pounds”???

Let me prove to You how false it is to base your point on that…in fact, i will prove how deadly it can be.

Summer of 2002. a turbo prop commuter plane crashed in Charlotte, on its way to SC.

Upon vf1 and final roll, it made a 360 arc, like a ferris wheel, right back onto the runway it just took off from.

What happened was a bunch of other passengers, arriving on connecting flights, missed this connecting final flight to SC.

When this happens, the Captain is required to recalculate weight distribution, keeping it equidistance from the planes center of gravity. Esp critical on non jet airliners. Problem was, the female Captain went by the rules, which were 25 plus years out of date, assuming the average passenger was 155 lbs…that was accurate in previous decades, but we all know about the recent upward spiral in obesity…the average is now much higher. Evidence revealed, she, like you, relied on out of date data…just like there is an upward spiral in the weights of pit bulls and their mixes..she reallocated too much mass to the rear of the CG point on the plane…as soon as it left the runway, it went nose up.

The FAA has now admitted its data on avg weights was grossly outdated…its time nutters did as well.

73

The dog was tazed while on a damn lead…I taze you…your ass will fly as well I guarantee it.

Your argument ad nauseum humping stats is poor. Period. There are more deaths due to guns then there are to dogs or cobras bites in any given year, not to mention general human idiocy.
According to your current logic had the dog been a chihuahua on steroids and pulling the officer it would have warranted being shot to death, even though it was not attacking and trying to run away.

74

I didn’t quite understand the analogy you made, but I don’t know what “point” you think I was making. As far as I know, I wasn’t making a point. I was trying to clear up nomenclature and help explain what the comment upthread about there not being 100 pound pitbulls meant. I don’t disagree with you that there is a trend to breed pitbull-type dogs larger. In fact, I alluded to that in that exact post that in the last 10-20 years, these large pitbull-type dogs (American Bullys) have become more and more popular.

75

cougar58

Your claims about dogsbite are absolutely unconvincing. The woman running the site is an extremist and a proven liar. They may say their cites are good, and some of them probably are, but in their effort to exaggerate a perceived problem, they include a lot of cites where the identification of the breed is suspect.

If you’re going to claim a 100-pound-plus dog is a pit bull, you might as well claim a blue whale is a flowerpot. What you are trying to do is define any dangerous dog as a pit bull. Well, no pit bull is 100+ pounds. And someone selling dogs to idiots is not a reliable source for breed identification – if you accept his claim, you’ll have to accept mine as well.

I don’t know why your claims about statistical analytical skills matter, especially when you’re taking garbage data in.

Magiver, are you sure that you have eliminated other causes in your half-century of observation? You’re not lumping pit bulls used for breeding, abused pit bulls, pit bulls owned by idiots, pit bulls kept chained, or anything other than well-cared-for family dogs into your equation? Because the factors that cause threats toward humans by any dog disproportionately affect pit bulls right now.

76

To what? To other dogs, or to humans?

77

Not only dogs and humans, but full sized livestock, such as adult horses, Llamas

What dogs, besides pit bulls, have killed adult horses any where near the number pit bulls do year after year. If at all, ever?

Lets not play Mr Uninformed. I can cite you a dozen reports of them in the past 2-3 years.

Do you really want more cites?

Since the ATTS test that you place so much stock in, lists Skye Terriors (google images that puny dog) as public enemy #1 because it only scores 37%, while PB’s amazing score close to 90% every year. can i get you to cite a few fatal horse attacks launch by a Sky Terrior?

for those of you playing along at home, this is what a skye terrior looks like

http://https://www.google.com/search?q=skye+terrier&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&rlz=1C1RNPN_enUS413&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=3_XYUJ7sGuLw2gXzhYCICA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1024&bih=589

…those deadly dogs that pit bull nutters insist are 3 times the danger as pit bull:

(pit bull images taken from a pro pit bull web page):

http://mdf4.hubpages.com/hub/Pitbull-Facts

78

Typical nutter claim. Nutters insist that fatal attacks by pit bulls, that have no DNA testing as evidence, may possibly not be a pit bull (“suspect”), and therefore not counted.

The police don’t demand a DNA test, when they have the pit bull in custody, as well as its owners, and even the owners not once hinted that the killer(s) were anything other than pit bulls.

DBO’s web site totals, year after year, coincide with Attorney Ken Philips well respected web site (by the way, he is not in favor of Breed Specific Legislation). I have my own theory on his logic there (hint: he deals only with dog maulings, hence the name of his web site).

http://dogbitelaw.com/

look what he stated on his front page blog today:
“official statistics establishing that approximately 9% of pit bulls bite people, while the average is 1-1/2% for all breeds” in San Diego.

He lists a cite as well for this stat.
his data points:

http://dogbitelaw.com/news-archive.html
click on the above, open it, then do a mass search for occurrence of “pit bull”… count them and get back to us.

Hint number 2: Ken Philips is a very wealthy and famous lawyer, who sues victims of all canine maulings (i.e., amputations) and fatals. Ask him how much $$$ he collected on Skye Terrior fatal attacks the past five years…then ask about pit bulls.

By the way, the woman who runs DBO, was recently asked to testify in the

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57426832/pit-bull-ruling-outrages-rescue-groups-owners/

interviewed on CBS newws, "Colleen Lynn, who runs an education website about dangerous dogs called DogsBite.org, wrote an amicus filing to the Maryland top court (Maryland Court of Appeals ) . The Court’s holding, in the Tracey v. Solesky pit bull mauling case, ruled that “pit bulls are inherently dangerous” still stands, as does strict liability for their owners and landlords when a tenant’s pit bull attacks.

Her data is peer reviewed:

Colleen Lynn created DogsBite.org, which currently receives over 200,000 page views per month and in April 2011 was cited in a peer-reviewed study published by the Annals of Surgery.

The top court in Maryland listened to her peer reviewed data…as do surgeons. such as this large respectable group of surgeons:

http://journals.lww.com/annalsofsurgery/Abstract/2011/04000/Mortality,_Mauling,_and_Maiming_by_Vicious_Dogs.23.aspx
Sorry, but I will listen to Marylands top court, and a group of surgeons, who used her peer-reviewed data, long before I will pay any heed to any pro pit bull web site.

79

[quote=“cougar58, post:77, topic:642204”]

Not only dogs and humans, but full sized livestock, such as adult horses, Llamas

What dogs, besides pit bulls, have killed adult horses any where near the number pit bulls do year after year. If at all, ever?

Lets not play Mr Uninformed. I can cite you a dozen reports of them in the past 2-3 years.

Do you really want more cites?

Since the ATTS test that you place so much stock in, lists Skye Terriors (google images that puny dog) as public enemy #1 because it only scores 37%, while PB’s amazing score close to 90% every year. can i get you to cite a few fatal horse attacks launch by a Sky Terrior?

for those of you playing along at home, this is what a skye terrior looks like

…those deadly dogs that pit bull nutters insist are 3 times the danger as pit bull:

Sorry, typo in link for Skye Terrior:
http://https://www.google.com/search?q=skye+terrier&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&rlz=1C1RNPN_enUS413&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=3_XYUJ7sGuLw2gXzhYCICA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1024&bih=589

80

hmmm…who would’ve thunk it?

news report just out this week, about a pit bull in a dog walk park, that bit a passing police officer (who was on a horse on patrol). Cop tells owner to get his PB, owner wisely declines…PB pulls cop off horse, knock cop unconcious.

Here is it, with a warning of graphic mauling on horse photos:

http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?recordid=585&page=3763

Now, despite pit nutters always saying “ban the deed, not the breed” here we have a bad deed…do nutters want the pit bull euthanized? No at all…In fact they have started a petition to release the pit bull…they also state the mounted cop had no business in the dog park (despite the fact he was a park ranger - where do nutters suggest we deploy them? - Aisle 12 at Walmart? Airport runways)?

cite:

http://www.petside.com/article/pit-bull-sentenced-die-horse-attack
right now, there are 107,125 signatures by nutter on the petition to free Charle, the pit bull.

http://www.causes.com/causes/790698-help-save-charlie

Not one, repeat not one, pit bull nutter/ apologist, has left their opinion that Charlie the PB should go the way of their “ban the deed, not the breed” mantra.

Sailboat, still waiting on your cite for a Skye terrior that has mauled an adult horse…bonus if it bags the cop on it as well.

(sounds of crickets chirping)