Did we win the cold war?

Great Debates
1

Did we, the US, win the cold war? I was here pretty much the whole time, and I’m not sure if we can take any credit for the break-up of the Soviet Union. I know that a lot of the responsibility for the fall lies with both the leaders and their opponents within the USSR. We didn’t really offer any assistance to the people who were under the rule of the USSR and wanted out.
So, what do you think?
Peace,
mangeorge

I only know two things;
I know what I need to know
And
I know what I want to know
Mangeorge, 2000

2

Well, we didn’t lose it.

It’s not how you pick your nose, it’s where you put the boogers

3

Well, IIRC, we did offer to expand the Marshall program to Communist countries; they refused (no without duress, no doubt).
And it is possible that the arms race, including the Stars Wars bluff, drove the USSR into bankruptcy.
Besides, looking at everything that countries have had to gone through in the last fifty years, isn’t the fact that the US survived, and the USSR didn’t, a victory of some sorts? Much of the Cold War was about who could better offer vision on how to prepare for the 21th century. In that regard, the US clearly defeated the USSR.

4

George Kennan opined that both sides lost the Cold War, since both sides spent vastly more money on defenses than they needed. Of course, the U.S. economy was in trouble when he proposed this theory - early 90s it must have been - with budget deficits seemingly out of control. Kennan said that Western economies survived the damage of the Cold War simply because they were larger than Eastern economies, but that each side would have been better off if they had not practiced proxy wars, perimeter defenses, domino theories, etc.

What part of “I don’t know” don’t you understand?

5

I don’t buy that. The cost of the Cold War wasn’t as great as many people think. The highest the U.S. military budget ever got was about 300 billion, and today it’s still over 200 billion. The portion of the military built because of the cold war would have been the strategic bomber fleet, the fleet of ICBM subs, and troop and weapons deployments in Europe. But some of that would have existed anyway.

Without a cold war, the U.S. might have been able to save 50-100 billion a year in direct military costs, but some of that spending has been recouped in R&D and other side benefits.

The USSR was in much worse shape, because they spent much, much more money as a percentage of GDP, and because they built a military in such a way that caused maximum disruption in the economy with minimal benefit.

Anyway, I think it’s hilarious that someone would say we spent “far more than we needed to”. Considering that we managed to get through the most dangerous period of our species’ existance without firing a shot, I’d say that we spent just the right amount.

6

Anyone can take credit for anything. Just make sure to have some supporting facts to your claim if you’re asked about it.

R.J.D.

7

If the cold war ended in the late 80’s, then there is no doubt we won it.

But it looks to me like we are still fighting it. Sure it eased up for a decade, but I don’t think the final chapter has been written yet.

8

Freedom is right, the cold war is not over yet. We won a battle with the break-up of the Soviet Union, and the increase in democracy and capitalism in the former SU. However, there are still many economic, politcal, and military questions.

Will the former republics be able to survive on their own? Will there be conflict like that which arose in Yugoslavia when it broke up, and that which is happening in Chechnya? What about China? Will it pursue expansion in Asia? Will it attack Taiwan?

Can America afford to maintain it’s massive military defense spending? Can the USA be the world’s policemen? Also, it’s important to remember that military spending in Russia and the US has not declined much since the 1980’s. Both sides still have missiles pointed at each other. I saw a 60 minutes show recently that said either side could launch an attack in minutes notice.

We still live in a dangerous, nuclear world. There is still a long way to go.

9

Contrary to the position in the last few posts, the Cold War is over. The Cold War was a catch phrase used to describe the tension between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. for example:

From WWWebster Dictionary (Mirriam-Webster, publisher)

THAT war ended when the Soviet Union busted up, the Warsaw Pact fractured, and the world went from a bi-polar (and sometimes tri-polar) framework, with every conflict around the globe framed in terms of capitalism versus communism, to the present day non-polar framework, within which the various players are attempting to sort themselves out.

It is quite true that the effects of the Cold War are not over. Most specifically, we are dealing with two distinct problems resulting from the collapse of the Soviet Union:

  1. The difficulty of the former republics of that Union in determining how they will govern themselves and involve themselves in world affairs, and

  2. The removal of bi-polar restraint on local military conflicts.

The difficulty presented by the breakup of the U.S.S.R. includes the fractured pride of the Russians and the response of the Russian people, as well as the relatively limited experience in many of the former republics with governing themselves. While there are certainly potentially serious problems created by this aspect (just WHO is watching the nukes?), mostly they seem to be being sorted out slowly. But the switch of the world’s political framework from bi-polarism, with its associated stringent crackdown on rogue military actions (for fear of escalation into Mutually Assured Destruction), to the present situation where individual factions can engage in warfare freely with only painfully slow response from the international community has, I think, caught the world’s leaders by surprise, with no idea quite how to handle it. Iraq invaded the ‘13th province’ and got its skull cracked for doing so; in the almost ten years since, we see multiple conflicts in Africa, various insurgencies in Central Asia, and war in the ‘soft underbelly’ of Europe (legacy of the 1500 year plus tensions in the area).

The Cold War is over; the Rioting is just begun…

10

Sorry DS, but I think I’d have to disagree slightly with your interpretation. Just because the USSR is no more does not mean the ideological differences went away. Russia, which was pretty much the controlling section of the former Soviet Union anyway, has not been particularly friendly since the break up.

When Hitler had finished off France in 1940, one might have argued at that time the war was effectively over. Only after events proceded further could we say that it had only really just begun. (Sure the British were still in it, but at the time, it looked like mainland Europe was done.) Now, when we look at political or sociological conflict, things are even more obscure. I don’t think we’ll truly be able to say the Cold War ended in 1989 (or began Cold War, part II) until many years from now.

11

Lots of questions here.

Is the cold war over?

Yep. USSR is gone, the Warsaw pact too, and some of the nations I trained to defend against are now NATO members. What is happening now is something else, IMHO.

Who won ?

The USSR lost. I quite agree with The Ryan - USSR does not exist anymore, and that’s pretty much the definition of losing a war. As for that leading to the conclusion the “we, the US” won, I’d like to add that a couple of us unwashed furriners might feel we did our bit, too.

What should we call the current state of affairs ?
Don’t ask me. Too much happening at one time.

I tend to agree with DSE: The effects will linger for a long time, and it’s going to be up to Russia & China.

A guess: Perhaps the changes are not as obvious in USA as they are here in Europe ? As DSE said, the nuclear scare is still there - and I suppose that was the primary Cold War concern from an American point of view. (Feel free to correct me on that assumption). That might, of course, lead to a feeling that “it’s not over yet”.

In Europe, OTOH, there was the threat of all-out conventional war as well. This is of course a most unpleasant perspective, and having that perticular threat evaporate was a very welcome relief.

So I guess the average European might be more likely to say that the Cold War is over than the average American…

Just a thot.

Norman

12

If you think we (NATO) won the cold war, why haven’t we had a victory celebration? a victory day? After WW1 there was armistice day. After WW2 there was VE and VJ day (victory in Europe and victory in Japan). Why don’t we have a VC day, victory in the cold war? I would think a 50 year struggle with several wars (Vietnamn, Korea, Latin America, etc…) would need more celebration.

Also, has any treaty been signed? No. There were treaties that ended WW1 and WW2.

13

And was there a declaration of war? No.

Does the phrase “figure of speech” mean anything to you? How about Metaphor?
Apparently not.

The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*

14

And in response to the post from Mrblue92, I’ll simply point out that, A) the ideological differences are different, now (mainline communism having lost out in the former Soviet Union, which no longer exists), and B) Russia can’t even protect the Serbs, let alone the Ethiopians any more.

Bi-polarism is dead, and bi-polarism is what made the Cold War. :slight_smile:

15

NATO can’t protect Checnya. They haven’t accomplished much in China, N. Korea or Cuba.

My main point is that their still is a nuclear standoff between Russia and NATO. Both sides have more than enough nukes pointed at each other to destroy each other.

16

I think we got a little off topic. I re-read the OP by Mangeorge. He isn’t asking if the cold war is over, he is asking if the US can take credit for ending the cold war.

Huh? We did a lot to end the USSR. Militarily, economically, and politically. We did everything except invade their country. We fought wars, we denied them aid as punishment and gave them aid for rewards, and our politicians hammered away at them since WW2. We boycotted the Moscow Olympics. We helped thousands of people under USSR rule by letting them defect and immigrate to the USA.

I don’t think the USSR was doomed because of it’s internal faults. I think the opposition from NATO contributed to it’s demise. Yes, the US can take a lot of the credit for ending the USSR.

17

Maybe I’m just being cynical, but I’d guess the “official” primary Cold War concern in America was Communism. Nuclear war would have been ok if the survivors were capitalists. It sounds extreme, but think about the Cuba Missile Crisis, the Johnson commercial about Goldwater, the nuclear tripwire defense of Europe, and “Better Dead than Red”.

18

::To be read with “The Star Spangled Banner” playing quietly in background::

The Cold War is over. The United States of America won.

The “War” was a conflict over ideology and power between the US and USSR. Both sides were relentlessly trying to expand their dominance and influence. The difference was in the means.

The USSR used brute force and fear to establish dominance and ‘free’ the workers of the world. Their empire is responsible for the worst homicides/genocide in the history of mankind. Their philosophy that a small cadre of men can dominate the planet through controlling the economy, religion, culture and the military was ill-conceived and deeply flawed.

They made the same two basic mistakes the Nazis did: they tried to control men’s thoughts and believed that the economy is second in importance to the military.

When the iron fist comes down, the intellectuals flee in droves. Soviet scientists, authors, poets, and other great thinkers were ordered to remain behind the curtain, but thousands fled anyway. These are the men (and woman) who work on atomic weaponry, rocketry, battle tanks, aviation, physics, etc. - most of them ended up in America by design (we were very active in assisting emigrees) and were very influential in our technological edge in practically every aspect of society. And of course, the authors, poets and film-makers made public the grim reality of soviet life - public opinion is a very strong force.

In the end the USSR could not support its own weight and the massive empire covering more than two continents collapsed onto itself in strife and ongoing civil war. The ending of the cold war showed the world the utter devastation soviet communism caused the people and the environment: Mass graves, pure black pollution covering entire villages, dire poverty, rampant alcoholism and unemployment, hospitals of filth, radioactive disaster areas and a huge crime-ridden black market. It will be 100 years before they recover.

Today, Russian candidates deal with issues of civil war, economic ruin, immense foreign debt, a devestated infrastructure, rising crime rates, firce seperatists and cries of revolution, while our candidates prattle on about college drug use, the internet, sexual escapades, abortion issues and tax cuts - yeah, I think we won the war.

The US didn’t exactly just stand by and watch the Soviet Union crumble, either. We sacrificed four decades, several trillion dollars, more than 100,000 young men and we terrified two generations of children to achieve this victory. It was hard fought and we should celebrate our achievement! We really should replace one of our current inane holidays with a Cold War V-day of sorts.

Yet to be reconciled with the reality of the dark for a moment, I go on wandering from dream to dream.

19

Is it? Or is it just a different flavor now? Russia is still opposed to us in our foreign policy decisions (NATO expansion, Kosovo, etc.). The East v. West ideological differences still stand, regardless of form of government; it’s just that they’re not quite so well defined anymore in the commie v. capitalist terms. U.S. wants to play world power, Russia says keep your nose our of our spheres of influence.

True, the big Bi-Polar Superpower conflict has faded from the world political stage to be replaced by a wider variety of actors, but it does not mean the prima donnas won’t come out for an encore.

And true, george, we did get off topic, but can the US take credit for something if it has happen yet? Hmm… I suppose Al Gore might…

20

hasn’t happened…

I’ve been doing that a lot lately…