At least their politicians (attempt to) deal with the issues. Ours just sweep them under the carpet. Every issue you mention has a counterpart in the U. S. Are they worse in Russia? Of course they are (except for the incarceration rate and the War on Some Drugs). But there’s no reason things here couldn’t get just as bad. They’re certainly trending that way. It’s not clear that the U.S. won the CW given the internal pounding it took.
Hah!
What the hell are you talking about? Out incomes are rising. Our crime is down on average. Fierce separatists? Sorry, your liberal art school roomates complaining about greed and those that it leaves behind. Those roomates all get jobs sooner or later, sorry. Immense foreign debt? Really, compared to some other nations, ours really is not that bad.
You know, doing what is right is easy. The problem is knowing what is right.
–Lyndon B. Johnson
Originally posted by Sake Samurai:
“The USSR used brute force and fear to establish dominance and ‘free’ the workers of the world. Their empire is responsible for the worst homicides/genocide in the history of mankind. Their philosophy that a small cadre of men can dominate the planet through controlling the economy, religion, culture and the military was ill-conceived and deeply flawed.”
…sounds similar to america’s corporate driven foreign policy of the 1900’s too.
MHL: Don’t be silly.
Sake Samurai: I think I’ll have to respectfully disagree on the theory of the “escape of the best & brightest minds” as a major contributor to the fall of the USSR. AFAIK, a lot of high-quality research was done in the USSR (physics, mathematics, metallurgy). If you look at their military hardware (arguably the place where the USSR would make the biggest effort), a lot of their designs would appear to be on par with most western efforts in most areas. (Look at what they are trying to export today - those weapons are the de luxe versions, granted, but they are anything but crude.)
Opinion: They faltered due to inefficiency and bad logistics, simply because there was no market to drive development in these areas. Their weapon systems was second best because of problems of quality assurance and manufacture, not because the designs lacked anything in ingenuity (sp?).
It would be nice to think that “intellect abhors a totalitarian system”, but I think that’s a bit optimistic.
Just my 0.02 Euro
Norman
No silly here Spiny, You name me a western hemisphere conflict(not to mention many conflicts beyond)in the 1900’s, and I’ll tell you about the tragedy that the Americans covertly or openly created.
WWII ?
Ok, what I meant was this: While the US foreign policy record definitely leaves quite a lot to be desired, I don’t think a comparison to the USSR is even remotely fair. Not that I’m going to hijack this otherwise interesting thread with a case-by-case rehash of every US/Soviet foreign policy blunder…
Norman
Bi-polarism is dead. Current foreign policy disputes are rarely if ever couched in terms of combatting Soviet policy. Military efforts worldwide are no longer couched in terms of ‘communism’ versus ‘capitalism’. Russian forces rarely poke their noses out of their home territory. Almost no one realistically worries about a Soviet (Russian) first strike of a nuclear war.
One must remember that, during the period of the Cold War (which will undoubtedly be referred to in the future as the period of 1945 through 1989), virtually everything that occurred in the world was cast into terms of US versus THEM. Not a military conflict, not a economic initiative could occur without there being considered the implications of American v. Soviet policy. It must have really galled a large portion of the world to think that every bit of their politics was viewed through this bi-polar microscope. Virtually our whole military and economic national policy (to say nothing of our social policies at various times) was devoted to preventing the spread of the ‘godless commies’. It inspired this country to great hights of compassion (Berlin, 1948), stupidity (McCarthyism), and plain flat lunacy (Vietnam, the war we wouldn’t let ourselves try to win, but couldn’t let ourselves loose).
Today, multiple factors are involved in the world’s politics, and Russia’s concerns are hardly a main force. It is questionable whether the Gulf War would have occurred had Iraq invaded Kuwait even five years earlier; the Iran-Iraq war only occurred in the 80’s because Iran made themselves international pariah’s in both camps. It is certain that the military involvement of NATO in the territory of the former Republic of the Southern Slavs (Yugoslavia) would never have occurred (Serbia and Russia have always had strong ties). They can have multiple ‘civil wars’ in the various African nations without either the US or Russia getting involved. Our economic policies tend to be more focused on what makes money for Americans, not what keeps Malaysia from becoming a domino.
“Ding Dong, the witch is dead. Which old witch? The wicked witch!”
Yep, and they thought they had that Napoleon guy licked the first time, too. You are probably correct DS, but history does have a way of making fools out of those who think they’ve got it all figured out.
See http://www.zolatimes.com/V3.43/politics_amer1.htm for some relevant stats and appropriate cites. If we take it that the CW ended in 1989, Table F2 (supported by tables P31 and P29A) hardly indicates a rise in per-worker income. Combine that with an increasing gap between rich and poor and it’s not a pretty picture.
This can be argued - the Uniform Crime Reports and the the National Crime Victimization Survey don’t always agree. In any case, incarceration is way, way up. See http://www.ncianet.org/ncia/facts.html or http://www.prospect.org/archives/32/32andefs.html . In summary: “Between 1984 and 1994, according to the Federal Bureau of Justice Statistics, the number of convicts admitted to the nation’s state and federal prisons in a year swelled 120 percent, from 246,260 to 541,434, boosting the total incarcerated 116 percent, from 419,346 to 904,647. The taxpayers’ overall bill for criminal justice—police, courts, and corrections—also nearly doubled in the period, from $45.6 billion in 1985 to $93.8 billion seven years later (…)”
Sure, the Hawaiians(sp?) http://www.hawaii-nation.org/index.html and the Alaskans http://www.ptialaska.net/~dclark/ and the Texans http://republic-of-texas.org/ aren’t likely to go far. But such activity does exist, and has been on the rise.
Not everybody with a .edu address is a student.
Again, arguable. I’ll cite http://www.epinet.org/webfeatures/econindicators/tradefax99b.pdf . And wonder, sice we’re #1, why we have a trade deficit at all.
Tominator, almost EVERY nation has those problems. The issue is the severity. I don’t see how you can make a valid comparison between Russia and the USA.
Mary HL, yeah the 1900’s saw some crazy US State-sponsored genocide to the tune of 30+ million. American leadership really did conquer and occupy dozens of nations, build a wall to keep East Germans from fleeing, suppressed thousands of intellectuals, exiled several Nobel-prize winning authors, poets and scientists, and devoted more than 15% of the economy to defense while millions starved to death. :rolleyes:
Spiny, I never said Soviet research was low quality, I merely contended that the exile and emigration of intellectuals had a great negative impact on the Union morally and technologically. The Soviets lost some great minds and relied, more and more, on stolen technology from the west.
I think most intellectuals DO abhor totalitarian systems - look no further than the amazing history behind the atomic bomb. Dozens of brilliant scientists fled Germany, Austria, Hungary (etc) after Hitler’s rise to power in the 30’s giving the US the powerful technological edge which led directly to the development and production of the most devastating weapon known to man. Had these intellectuals liked the Nazi system, Germany certainly would have beaten us to the punch.
mrblue, I’m with you! It won’t be long before some zany frenchie clones a new Napoleon to ravish Europe! I ain’t counting him out yet.
Yet to be reconciled with the reality of the dark for a moment, I go on wandering from dream to dream.
FWIW, I agree with DS and Spiny Norman. BTW, DS, I think of the current period as The Hot Peace, not the Rioting.
Tominator2, our incarceration rate is up simply because of our insane “War on Drugs.”
Mary Hart’s Gams, if we Americans were even one-third as evil as you believe, we would have invaded Canada a long time ago, and your communist ass would be roasting over a slow fire. Get a life.
The Coyote gnaws …
but he does not swallow.
Just wait 'til he tries to invade Russia again on horseback.
Of course you know I was referring to his return after the first exile… Perhaps Germany invading France twice in less than 30 years (1914,1940) is a better example.
The severity level is certainly different. I question if that’s an inherent feature of the situation, or just a difference in temporal progression. It’s possible any victory in the CW was pyrrhic, given the repercussions we’re feeling now.
They’re both large, ideologically-driven countries, until recently engaged in a deathgrip with each other?
You’ve figured out the U.S. policy in Latin America!
mrblue, Germany and France is a bad example because the Germans learned much from WWI and were able to take France in under a month in WWII.
Tominator, I still completely fail to see how the US has been devastated by the Cold War. I can not honestly trace the cause of ONE of our social or economic problems directly to the USSR. Perhaps you’d be so kind as to illustrate your point.
Sure, and they’re also both inhabited by millions of carbon-based lifeforms and contain lots of towns, cities, lakes and trees. We were discussing comparing the aftermath of the Cold War and its effect on the two societies. I see no comparison - the Soviet methodology of Cold War ‘battle’ was crippling to a severe degree.
Uh-uh, and the Federal government developed and distributed crack to its own citizens to keep the black man down!
Yet to be reconciled with the reality of the dark for a moment, I go on wandering from dream to dream.
As I thought was obvious from my previous posts (I could be mistaken) I was making the point that history does not always follow the expected path. The examples:
Napoleon abdicated and was exiled to Elba in 1814; the continent rejoices. He returns in 1815 only to be defeated at Waterloo and exiled again, further away this time.
Germany defeated in WW1; treaty places harsh restrictions that French think will keep Germany from rising again. Germany rises again anyway to start WW2 and conquer France.
Soviet Union & Warsaw Pact collapse, nations are still in turmoil. If you can predict the future ramifications, than I suggest you write a book. Better yet, start playing the stock market. There are no guarantees that the Soviet Union will not reappear, or that a fascist dictatorship won’t arise. Yes, it seems very unlikely, but stranger things have happened.
Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote:
“Mary Hart’s Gams, if we Americans were even one-third as evil as you believe, we would have invaded Canada a long time ago, and your communist ass would be roasting over a slow fire. Get a life.”
The assumption that I’m Canadian is an assumption without basis. However, speaking on Canadians’ behalf, the NAFTA agreement has solidified the economic and cultural invasion of Canada by American interests. While far from having communist ideals, that’s evil enough for me.
- No thanks for the invitation to the roast.
Understood, mrblue. I was off on a learning-from-history tangent and for no particular reason choose you as the devil’s advocate in my imaginary debate. Thanks for bursting my magical bubble of fun.
Maryhart, cultural invasion implies that there is an actual ‘culture’ being invaded!
Yet to be reconciled with the reality of the dark for a moment, I go on wandering from dream to dream.
Originally posted by Sake Samurai:
“Mary HL, yeah the 1900’s saw some crazy US State-sponsored genocide to the tune of 30+ million. American leadership really did conquer and occupy dozens of nations, build a wall to keep East Germans from fleeing, suppressed thousands of intellectuals, exiled several Nobel-prize winning authors, poets and scientists, and devoted more than 15% of the economy to defense while millions starved to death.”
Actually, as usual, you’re a little off on your facts, but just maybe your getting the idea!..Great job in the attempt though!
We’ve been through this before Samurai Sushi, but, with respect to American role in the Post WWII era, the CIA didn’t mind utilizing former Nazi authorities to create training programs for brutality and terror in South America, Central America and smaller missions in Europe. In all, Americans officials ensured there were no popular and democratically supported movements in countries that American interests could take advantage of.
Americans have supported the drug trades and routes for decades. This is not conspiracy theory but fact. Americans have laid waste to previously successful Brazilian and Columbian farming communities where now the only viable product they can feed their families through is the coca plant.
Americans invaded Panama and shipped drugs back to America during the mission on federal planes. Remember Noriega…he was a CIA supported thug until the US couldn’t trust him so Bush invaded the country. In reality, American interests were in Panama to ensure a regime was installed that was in their hands durning the return of the Canal in 2000 to Panamanian regulation.
The US supported and established the French Connection for the Mob after the Mob did some dirty work in Western Europe for the American interests.
And the list goes on…I could most likely educate you all day Sushi. All told American foreign intervention cost millions of lives in the Cold War and hasn’t this Empire has let up none since.
Why don’t you quit your infantile style of debate and bring real and historical evidence to refute my statments.
Originally posted by Sake Samurai:
“Mary HL, yeah the 1900’s saw some crazy US State-sponsored genocide to the tune of 30+ million. American leadership really did conquer and occupy dozens of nations, build a wall to keep East Germans from fleeing, suppressed thousands of intellectuals, exiled several Nobel-prize winning authors, poets and scientists, and devoted more than 15% of the economy to defense while millions starved to death.”
Actually, as usual, you’re a little off on your facts, but just maybe your getting the idea!..Great job in the attempt though!
We’ve been through this before Samurai Sushi, but, with respect to American role in the Post WWII era, the CIA didn’t mind utilizing former Nazi authorities to create training programs for brutality and terror in South America, Central America and smaller missions in Europe. In all, Americans officials ensured there were no popular and democratically supported movements in countries that American interests could take advantage of.
Americans have supported the drug trades and routes for decades. This is not conspiracy theory but fact. Americans have laid waste to previously successful Brazilian and Columbian farming communities where now the only viable product they can feed their families through is the coca plant.
Americans invaded Panama and shipped drugs back to America during the mission on federal planes. Remember Noriega…he was a CIA supported thug until the US couldn’t trust him so Bush invaded the country. In reality, American interests were in Panama to ensure a regime was installed that was in their hands durning the return of the Canal in 2000 to Panamanian regulation.
The US supported and established the French Connection for the Mob after the Mob did some dirty work in Western Europe for the American interests.
And the list goes on…I could most likely educate you all day Sushi. All told American foreign intervention cost millions of lives in the Cold War and hasn’t this Empire has let up none since.
Why don’t you quit your infantile style of debate and bring real and historical evidence to refute my statements.
Mary Hart’s Legs posted 03-10-2000 04:46 PM
You’re blaming America for Canadian foreign policy decisions?
Yes, when compared to easing trade restictions between the US, Mexico, and Canada, Soviet purges just don’t seem all that bad :rolleyes:.
Tominator2:
Trade deficit, national debt, and foreign debt are three very different concepts. Do you have any evidence that the US has any net foreign debt? And no pdf’s; my computer doesn’t like them.
mrblue92:
Winning a war against a country does not necessarily entail destroying their ability to wage war ever again. It’s possible that Britain will invade the US tomorrow. Does that mean we didn’t really win the Revolutionary War? It’s possible that the South will try to secede again. Does that mean we didn’t really win the Civil War? Short of killing every last Communist and destroying every record of the Communist ideology, what would satisfy you that we won the Cold War?