Did your college make a difference?

[Motorgirl]

@MandaJo

But that professional experience is a result of the quality of your education–more than branding matters here. If you walk into your first job with a group of entry level people, and you are the one that is the most capable, either because you already have a more diverse skill set or because you are the most capable of learning new skills, you end up with more opportunities to develop those professional skills that matter down the line. If you get a weak education, even if you get lucky and land the same first job as some others, you won’t be able to make as much of it.

These are very interesting points and I find myself agreeing with you. I hadn’t really thought it through to come to any conclusions on my own.

Of course, “highly prestigious and expensive” is not the same as “offers better education”. But I really feel there is a correlation, and it behooves everyone to put getting a solid education–an education where they come out smarter, more skilled, and more confident–ahead of almost any other priority. There are state schools that offer this. There are state schools that do not. People need to be careful.

I too think there is a strong correlation, though obviously not 100%. I used to joke that at a second-rate university anyone who worked hard enough could get a great education. And at a first-rate university anyone who worked hard enough could avoid getting a great education. The better the school the more stuff is just floating through the air for you to accidentally catch.

[Great_Antibob]

Of course, YMMV, but there have been attempts at estimating ROI on colleges. It’s kind of hard to measure that sort of thing precisely, but the methodology can be examined, at least.

The lists don’t correlate strictly with the commonly accepted top schools in the country, but there certainly is a positive correlation.

Economic return isn’t necessarily the best measure of “value”, but it’s probably a factor for most people on the value proposition of higher education.

Payscale.com ROI list
Forbes ROI list

[Voyager]

@Lakai

To sum up, schools pretend they make a difference by teaching, but they don’t. Their only value is their network, if you can take advantage of it.

I went to MIT, and benefited from the halo effect, but taught at Illinois and one of the better state schools in Louisiana. I found that in Louisiana I had to ratchet down the level at which I explained things quite a bit, because the average student didn’t get stuff that an Illinois student got easily. (And CS students were the cream of the crop, relatively speaking.) It isn’t the level of teaching, it is the level of ones fellow students.
As for networking, you have to distinguish between national networking (which top schools are best at) and local networking. Even not very good state schools are good for that if you plan to stay in the state.

[monstro]

There are easy schools. There are hard schools. And then there are “medium” schools. I suppose you can argue that teaching quality isn’t necessarily correlated with the difficulty of the curriculum. But I’d need to see some reputable cites for this before I believed it.

I worked my ass off in college, not just because I’m not a genius but because my university was a killer when it came to coursework. I assumed all universities were the same way until I went to graduate school, when I realized many schoolmates wouldn’t have lasted a day at my alma mater. It’s possible that our universities had nothing to do with our skill level, but I think not. At the very least, I was accustomed to a rat race they’d never had to face before. Grace under fire is a skill in of itself.

What’s tricky is linking this differential to differences in life outcomes. Last time I checked in with everyone I went to grad school with, we were all employed in “good” jobs. No one is flipping burgers for a living. Everyone is in the career they wanted. Maybe this will change a couple of years from now when the assistant professors come up from tenure. But right now? We’re pretty much all at the same level. (Though ironically, the one guy who went to an Ivy League took the most difficult and unorthodox path).

That said, as much as I wince when I reflect on my undergraduate years, I wouldn’t trade them for anything. It’s possible that if I had gone to a less selective, less competitive institution, I would have unintentionally aimed for mediocrity and not even considered going to graduate school.

[pulykamell]

I would say “yes.” I would not have the career I have (photographer) if I went to a different school. Now, whether that is a good thing or not, I don’t know, but I love what I do and I’m happy where I’m at. I also very much appreciate the connections I made. They don’t necessarily have direct bearing on what I do today in terms of getting jobs (although the photography route of my career did happen because of where I was and who I met), but it’s nice to see and know so many people who are known names in various professions.

[The_Mask_behind_the_Mask]

In my experience, definitely. The college I went to is widely known for its excellent CS program. Like others have mentioned already, there are several companies (including my current employer) that look quite favorably upon engineering or science graduates from my school.

The college has a reputation for being difficult and competitive, so many recruiters and interviewers were visibly impressed simply by my educational origins. Even now, years after graduation, the school’s reputation has helped me slip my foot in many doors

[HazelNutCoffee]

It has made a pretty big difference to me, but Korea is unhealthily obsessed with school rankings. I used to work as a supervisor at a private academy, and one of the teachers I was responsible was a Harvard grad. The academy had CCTV in every classroom, and my job was to watch the classes to see how the teachers were doing. I was really appalled to learn that the Harvard grad, an English major, struggled in the classroom with gerunds and infinitives. But when I told the Korean staff about this, they just shrugged it off. They said the moms didn’t care because he was from Harvard.

[Hippy_Hollow]

It does matter. Alan Krueger’s research on twins who attended different schools found that generally, the twin that attended the better school fared better in the labor market. This goes back to a pretty consistent finding in the research literature - peer effects matter. The smarter your classmates, the more rigor you will experience in the classroom as you compete.

Now, having said that, there are so many variables that factor in here. If you go to a state school with a great reputation in a certain field, people might be more impressed by that than an Ivy League degree (especially if that particular field is not one of their strengths). And what if you’re a standout at your university (class president, etc.)?

I did a prestigious honors major at UT. It would have helped if I wanted to go to med school or law school, but I taught after graduation and nobody gave a shit what I majored in; in fact, one of the human resource officers told me to stop using my major’s name and just say I was an honors humanities major. I then got my master’s and doctorate at Harvard (not at the same time; in my field the master’s can be a terminal degree). So I experienced the halo effect as a master’s graduate and as a doctoral graduate.

One of my professors had a saying: “No-one is agnostic about Harvard.” I think this is true. The second that someone mentions that Hippy went to Harvard, there’s an arched eyebrow. Sometimes it’s “oh, he’s gonna be smarter than average.” Sometimes it’s “oh, he’s gonna be a snob.” There was a column in Slate recently about the “H bomb” and the annoying tendency for Harvardians to mention that they went to school in the Boston area. The only people who say this are people who go to small schools that you wouldn’t know of unless you lived there (like Lesley College) or Harvard people. And truthfully, Harvard people are the worst perpetrators of this behavior.

The people who are generally indifferent are other Ivy League grads who aren’t insecure about their school. I know a guy who’s a Stanford Ph.D. who felt the need to tell me that he got into Harvard but chose not to go. Why would anyone feel the need to say that?

Hell, I went to Harvard for many reasons, one of which is the prestige. I will also say that for my doctorate, that was less important: I already had a Harvard degree and Harvard isn’t the top school for my specialty. I went because my mentor and other folks were encouraging me to come back and I knew the community well. I liked Harvard a lot, though I have to point out that I did not attend Harvard College, which is another experience altogether. In the Harvard pecking order, my grad program is near the bottom, with the College, Business, and Law occupying the top rungs. So no, my kids aren’t legacies, despite spending seven years in school there. However, the Harvard effect intensifies once you venture outside of Cambridge. I had a ton of capital on the job market and was offered both tenure-track positions I applied for. I like to think that I was great on the job talk, but I’m sure the Harvard halo kicked in too. To this day, when I’m introduced to other scholars by a colleague, they will often drop “he earned his doctorate at Harvard” in the message.

But I have lost count of the times that someone will tell me, “I can’t believe you’re so cool. I thought because you went to Harvard you’d be stuck up and use big words all the time.” Usually this is after a colossal screw up where it’s evident the Harvard guy doesn’t have his shit together.

[susan]

Lesley College

Would that be the now-university in the Cambridge area?

[Hippy_Hollow]

@susan

Would that be the now-university in the Cambridge area?

The very same. Showing my age here.

[gigi]

I went to an Ivy League school and was lucky enough that my parents prized education and had saved to finance it. Being a good student was my job and I put in the effort to succeed at my job and get into a good school.

I am risk-averse so I took courses I could pass and do OK in. I don’t use my major (Economics) but I enjoyed studying it.

I think it was worth it because the credential says something about me and my basic competence. It’s been 25 years though so at this point it’s a credential to fulfill and other experience counts more.

[susan]

@Hippy_Hollow

The very same. Showing my age here.

Mine, too. It was a college when I knew it.

[DrumBum]

I went to Stanford and I suspect it makes more difference today than it did when I graduated ( late 80’s ). The new hires today come from a variety of universities and while they certainly might weight a graduate of Stanford or MIT over a state school, there is a lot of competition in the industry for qualified earth science and engineering graduates, so the O&G companies get them in as interns to see if they work out.

[Dangerosa]

I did the other end - I graduated - with highest honors mind you - from Metropolitan State University - an “open enrollment” school that did not have a rigorous curriculum, specializes in working adults (lots of immigrants), and frankly, was less demanding than my daughters high school AP coursework.

I was 40, already pretty successful at my career, and needed a B.A or B.S. to pass resume screenings. I didn’t intend to climb to the top of my career or be an executive - I wanted a cube job that I can leave at home nights and work 35-40 hours to make it to baseball practice for my son or pick up my daughter from drama.

Yes, my school is limiting - I didn’t make great networking connections and the school is a minor line item that doesn’t stand out. No one is going to put my resume on the interesting pile due to my school - or offer me a job out of the blue from it.

My kids are high schoolers now. For my son, a low tier state school will be fine - he doesn’t have the talents currently to benefit from a rigorous curriculum (and right now wants trade school). My daughter isn’t Ivy League material, but if she takes the “when in doubt, go to Stout” path, I’d be disappointed. She can get more out of college than that will offer.

[amaguri]

I think it makes a difference from a networking perspective (as evidenced by the number of employees at this company who have no experience or qualifications other than going to the same school as the boss). As a result, you may get a higher starting salary right out of the gate.

But I went to a cheap state school that I could afford (thanks mainly to scholarships) and graduated without much in the way of student loan debt. Ultimately I don’t think it matters too much for most careers.

[sunstone]

It matters. My undergraduate degree in Botany was from one of the three top universities for Botany at the time. It certainly opened opportunities when I applied to grad school.

However, I would hasten to add that I really did have an outstanding education at the undergraduate level, which I think has stayed with me over the last 50 years. That includes not only my major but also in most of the other areas where general graduation requirements took me.

Mostly it made doors possible for me. I still had to knock and pull the handle.

[Dangerosa]

@sunstone

However, I would hasten to add that I really did have an outstanding education at the undergraduate level, which I think has stayed with me over the last 50 years. That includes not only my major but also in most of the other areas where general graduation requirements took me.

I think that most people who qualify for a quality education today (because most good schools are selective - even below the Ivy Level) have a bunch of natural talents - they are critical thinkers already. They enjoy picking up knowledge - which they analyze by habit. A good school will guide that person quickly, and perhaps provide resources (especially in the Sciences with labs and equipment) that aren’t easily available outside. But chances are good that even without that education, that person would still develop knowledge and skills - because doing so is part of who they are. It will take longer and be less formal, but they’ll get there.

The thing is that they won’t have the line on their resume or alumni contacts that say “hey, I’m a good analytical thinker who searches out information and has been exposed to a lot of various ideas.” Which is what a degree from a good school says. A degree from a not good school (like my alma mater) says “I paid my tuition, sat in class, achieved enough skill competency to not fail (and the bar wasn’t that high), and stuck it out long enough to graduate.” And for certain professions and people with mundane ambitions, that is adequate. Depends on how heavy that door you want to get through is.

The other thing a good school will do is it will surround you with other good students who are interested in the bigger ideas. My classmates at Metro State in my business ethics class were not interested in talking about Kant - they were interested in getting a C in a required course. The ideas presented had little appeal as ideas, but as material to be learned to pass a test. Talking about ideas accelerates learning and understanding. (My first most of a degree was in Film Studies and I remember sitting around talking about a Walter Benjamin essay - or Susan Sontag - for hours after a class - that was at the University of Minnesota which is a better - although not great - school).

[That_Don_Guy]

I went to a public school, albeit one of the top ones in my chosen field at the time (Cal-Berkeley - I think Cal and Illinois-Urbana were the top two public schools in computer science back in the early 1980s), and I like to think that it made a difference in my profession. In pretty much everything else, not so much; after all, how many different ways are there of learning, say, British political science, matrix algebra, or how to write properly?

[msmith537]

@Shagnasty

A famous consulting company called me and said they had an IMMEDIATE need for a great position with a world-famous company that everyone has heard of. This was on a Thursday morning and the job started on Monday. I asked them if they wanted me to go through interviews or do something else to qualify because I was used to dealing with minor players that made people jump through hoops just to get a receptionist job. No they said, I was already pre-screened and hired if I was interested. I took it and it has worked out quite well. I never even had to fill out an application or go through any interviews. It was simply one and done.

Was this a contract position or a full-time job with a consulting firm? Because I’ve worked at a number of famous consulting firms and they tend to have fairly robust interviewing process. Having a prestigious college on your resume just gets you the interview.

But my last job as a consultant/contractor was very much like what you described. I actually had three different recruiters call me about the same job. One 30 minute interview later, I’m working at a famous (actually infamous) financial services company.

[MandaJo]

@That_Don_Guy

In pretty much everything else, not so much; after all, how many different ways are there of learning, say, British political science, matrix algebra, or how to write properly?

Quite a few. People tend to assume their school was what was normal and proper, but there is a great deal of variation: one schools normal expectations can seem draconian in another.