Sure. And my father didn’t die of carcinoma. The death certificate listed pneumonia as the cause.
Tell this to Anthony Fauci who talks like you are wrong. So if he claims he is that good, then Tony, give us the proof.
OK, you seem to know. No dogfight here. Tell Tony I want the facts amd data that show HIV/AID Existence and Aids connections that are used to drive Policy.
I stand corrected Urban Ranger
No no sir. I use not superlatives for fun. I have seen and heard Anthony Fauci, for just one, praise the quality and quantity of AIDS research as I have indicated. And sir, did you see my request? I ask to be directed to only 10 representative published recearch documents that proves, HIV exists amd that HIV causes AIDS.
If all theories are falsifiable I 'll just falsify the HIV/AIDS theory. Zap, there, its done. Oop, was I supposed to do that?
If so, lo siento.
You can get in big trouble, Mr. Urban Ranger because karma can voodoo you, if you’re the one who hides the truth.
I guess that would depend on what the false premse was.
Your opinions are falling in overstuffed ears. We all believe, now we want veification and comfirmation, if you please.
This is not an exercise in philosophical discourse.
.
We are looking for some accountability in government es-espcially in projects and programs that directly effect human beings.
Elements of the US Governent are running the show. If what they do is correct, then no sweat off my brow. But can we tolerate belief in a the "treatment is improving" claim amd walk away believing every thing is fine?
Y es, if false promises were written like reader99 who knows, "nothing about the subject", though can make up scratch,
like that …well enough said about that.
Treatment designed, developed and managd by US Government authority is the entity under scrutiny here. We have the right and the duty to know.We demand the NIH provide an official and un-ambiguous description of the published scientific papers used to prove the existence of HIV amnd the proof of causing AIDS.
This all Edwino.
If you are employed in the AIDS industry, why are you telling us we cannot find the truth because there is just too much of it? Unless you are a propagandist committed with sincerity to the truth of what some tell you to say, I would find some honest work, MacDonalds is hiring today.
And, by the way, when did “concsensus picture” paradigm substitute for the scientific method? the one called called “objective scrutiny”, and “let the chips fall near they lie”.
Edwino, does your mother know about this, and are you familiar with the concepts, or did truth just pass you by?
You do have a great idea, though , we can save a lot of research spending if all we need is consensus.
Why do you try to distract? I sense you a professional, engaging in moonlighting activity ,while you are still bought by others, like where you go when you are on the clock.
I don’t know about AZT causing AIDS, but there is some probable evidence linking the perscriptions made for death.
JayJay - AZT was designed to interfer with cell division as a possibility for use in cancer therapy = stop cell division-stop cancer - AZT stops cell divison, only - stopping cell division, the most basic and observable of life processes. In test on termional patients in the late 50s ealy 60s it didn’t work and the project terminated. The damage incurred was worse than the cancer.death.
AZT designed to kill for you!
Are you and Early Out fellow travelers and seekers of the truth? Or Glib and Smug, The comedians practicing introductory level Bob and Ray routines? The ones I remember most, the series that they presented well, to give some kick, to fellow travelers out there alone, Internet Routines 66.
A couple a’ meter clicks off off rhyme, so what?
This is getting ridiculous. If this was just about proof, Mhernan, I don’t think you’d feel the need to go so far in smearing people who disagree with you. “The AIDS industry?” Edwino is “a propagandist?” Why did you even bother to start a debate?
I’m not even a scientist and I understand this point. The scientific method, used over and over again, builds up a general consensus. When something has been reproduced consistently, there is a greater likelihood it’s true, and scientists are more likely to accept this than they are a single result that contradicts a great deal of data. The fact that there is a consensus that HIV causes AIDS is the reason you have to resort to conspiracy theories about the US government, the NIH, the “AIDS industry,” and who knows what else. Outside of some mass conspiracy, there is no explanation for the fact that in terms of data, you are on the short end of the stick. Which is also why the burden of proof is on you- the scientific consensus is flatly against your position.
In all of human history, has any contagious disease, deadly or otherwise, ever restricted itself to one particular sub set of the population over such a long (30 years) period?
We find that an “immune deficiency syndrome” is suffered by this small sub set of the population who are usually:
Mostly male.
IV drug users.
Indifferent to living a healthy lifestyle and actually living ruinous lifestyles.
Believe in medical advice to the effect that taking AZT and/or Protease Inhibitors will cure or help their assaulted/insulted/damaged immune systems.
I realise that this is not as valuable as a “cite” but I have worked in the health system for many years and I can assure you from my own observations of medical clinicians that the ability of the medical profession to conduct scientific research, or acknowledge its mistakes, is seriously lacking.
Let the roll-eyes come.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Owes Bess
n all of human history, has any contagious disease, deadly or otherwise, ever restricted itself to one particular sub set of the population over such a long (30 years) period?
We find that an “immune deficiency syndrome” is suffered by this small sub set of the population who are usually:
Mostly male.
IV drug users.
Indifferent to living a healthy lifestyle and actually living ruinous lifestyles.
Believe in medical advice to the effect that taking AZT and/or Protease Inhibitors will cure or help their assaulted/insulted/damaged immune systems.
I realise that this is not as valuable as a “cite” but I have worked in the health system for many years and I can assure you from my own observations of medical clinicians that the ability of the medical profession to conduct scientific research, or acknowledge its mistakes, is seriously lacking.
Let the roll-eyes come.
Alan owes Bess
How much is incompetence?
How much is eager to believe?
How much is conspiracy if any you saw?
People find it hard to believe the biggest lies, and then some don’t believe at all.
Kid Yuma
I appreciate your zeal to demonstrate your scientific, so may you could do a parallel calculation as a check against Your assessmen. Justcheck out your numbers with a revised confidence level, assuming tou do not have the scientific proof of any of the facts you assert as true. What is your game ? Do you look around for threads to spread your name upon? You know very well your numbers are meaningless until you prove your data true.
Why do you come on a board like this with fairy tales and a hand held calculator? Who benefits?.
Not me that for sure, cetainly not your sense of science, and certainly not AIDS victims, no ome but your time upon the stage.
What the hell, take a bow.
This is Great Debates, not The Pit. Please check your ad hominem arguments at the door. I am not “daft,” nor am I a “fellow traveler.”
Tell you what. If you’re convinced that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, and that someone with an otherwise healthy immune system is perfectly capable of fending off the HIV virus, how about offering yourself up for an experiment (though I can’t imagine who’d be persuaded to carry it out): have yourself injected with the virus.
It would certainly be the end of the argument, one way or another.
Beyond that, I’m checking out of this thread, as it’s become a total bore. If anyone else cares to continue this pointless attempt at providing relevant cites to someone who simply refuses to acknowledge them, be my guest.
Here they come.
Remember Eve Grafhorst?
There’s plenty more like that.
Yep. IV drug using kiddies and babies living ruinous lifestyles. :rolleyes:
Falsifying a theory involves more than simple denial. You have to produce evidence that shows that the theory is inadequate to explain the established data.
There seems to be considerable evidence that HIV causes AIDS, and further evidence seems to pop up frequently. To quote the linked Cecil article on AIDS:
New regimes like protease inhibitors seem to be able to reduce the viral load in HIV+ people below detectable levels, and this seems to stop the progress of the disease (as seems to have been the case with, for instance, Magic Johnson).
So even a superficial glance at the evidence produces strong indications that HIV is the culprit. What evidence do you have that it is not? This is what is meant by “falsifiable”.
I await your first reasoned and coherent response in this thread.
Regards,
Shodan
I know I said I was checking out of this thread, and I know that I’m the one who’s objected to ad hominem arguments, but sometimes, ya just gotta pick the low-hanging fruit. With apologies:
Does anyone else find Mhernan’s location to be stunningly appropriate?
Ok, now I’m gone!
Does anyone have statistics of how many people with HIV viral infection have died of old age? Has there been any studies that would have found people with HIV that have lived with it for more than 20+ years and not developed any AIDS like symptoms.
snicker
He is somewhat capable of a coherent argument, as evidenced by this article, so perhaps you will indeed get what you await. 
BTW, is your name also Mike Anderson as well as Mike Hernan?
He seems to be saying similar things, and has a very similar style and email address. nom de plume?
Clarity and simplicity are virtues, Mhernan
So are good typing and knowing the difference between “your” and “you’re.”
Look Mhernan, please review the previous cited thread and the humiliating intellectual ass paddlings Edwino and others delivered to the previous 'HIV doesn’t cause AIDS" eager beavers making the same argument you are attempting to make. In their defense the last AIDS deniers at bat did a much better job than you, and focused a bit more on the science involved vs the classic, tinfoil hat government+big science conspiracy angle you seem enamored of.
Your previous fellow travelers pseudo-intellectual butt cheeks were cherry red by the time the last thread finished. You seem to be angling for a blistering white hot this go round. Have fun, but please offer us something better than the oafish rhetorical tap dance you are attempting so far, and your tossing out of terms it is evident you really don’t comprehend the meaning of. The last act in this play on the previous thread was at least more entertaining.
Why thanks, astro. I’m flattered.
Mhernan
I am not a propogandist. I am not employed by the AIDS industry. I am pursuing a PhD in molecular genetics in a field wholly unrelated to HIV research. I am also getting an MD, and I have treated many HIV+ and AIDS patients. That is my sole connection to the field. I was born in South Africa, and I have seen the devastation caused by HIV and AIDS. I consider it to be the most important problem on the globe today. Peddling intellectually irresponsible hypotheses about HIV and AIDS makes the problems worse. This isn’t about money, it is about human life. The pharm giants and the US government aren’t making money off of selling antiretrovirals to Africa; in fact they have taken huge hits on it and dismissed intellectual property rights to some of the more complicated drugs ever formulated. We need to focus on ways to prevent, limit, and treat HIV and AIDS in a cost effective manner. The only science you need to know is this – reducing the HIV infection makes AIDS go away. Decreasing viral loads with HAART leads to increased CD4 counts and less opportunistic infections. With 40% HIV carriage in parts of Africa, debating on scientific method and forwarding conspiracy theories should not be allowed.
This is why I will debate the science only. No conspiracy theories, no philosophy of science. Only the data. It is your job to show me that HAART with HIV-specific protease inhibitors does more harm than good. It is your job to show me that AZT prophylaxis of prenatal transmission is doing harm to newborns. It is your job to show me that HIV education and safe-sex initiatives which are lowering transmission are not leading to decreases in HIV deaths.
About consensus – most of clinical medicine is based on it. Since we can’t do experiments on humans, carefully controlled research is usually impossible. Simple fact of ethics. So we do lots of animal studies, lots of population cohorts, lots of epidemiology and public health surveys. Consensus is how we form medical opinions on most things.
Astro,as long as there is no responsible person in the US Government able to complete this one little request I must assume either there is no list, or the list is being kept from me, from us, the people. Which one is it: intentionally refusing to give us a copy. They have of a list, or are they hiding something.
It is inconceivable that one man, or two, or ten men could conspire and be so good at it. This cannot be small it must be just as you fear, tinfoil hat government +big science conspiracy. You have it! They wont tell us the truth about the science, so either the science is bad, incompetent, or it’s good and there is some thing we shouldn’t see in the data. Was that just a lucky guess or do you know something. Your people should be proud of you, and this changes everything.
The last act in this play on the previous is that I do not argue scientific matters in public.
But I fear you’ve been mislead if they told you about arguments, which I do not like. That is definitely not me.
As convincing, as Anthony Fauci is telling the world the evidence is so overwhelming that HIV cause AIDS, it is a slam-dunk, and one has to believe.
If somebody is in your face talking like that, you believe him right. I believe him. He knows,now. I just ask for a list of his choice, for his top ten. You believe HIV causes AIDS, and Fauci believes HIV causes AIDS; we do not have to argue about that 'cause it does not matter what I believe, what matters is what the data tell us. I think Fauci wants to help.
Hey you’re not going to hold that pseudo-intellectual thing against me. That would be unfair. I didn’t know he was even a fellow traveler, really, he was just my cousin. I suppose they don’t get any worse than that, do they Astro.