HIV Test bogus, says PCR inventor

… and others. Have they been debunked? Has the virus been isolated since? Is this possible in this day and age?

Also: Two more scientists rethink AIDS

More popular-level articles - see links on right.
“If there is evidence that HIV causes AIDS, there should be scientific documents which either singly or collectively demonstrate that fact, at least with a high probability. There is no such document.

Dr. Kary Mullis, Biochemist, 1993 Nobel Prize for Chemistry. Inventor of PCR.
“Up to today there is actually no single scientifically really convincing evidence for the existence of HIV. Not even once such a retrovirus has been isolated and purified by the methods of classical virology.”

“The result of my intensive literature research shows that so far not one publication exists, in which is being described that HIV has been isolated, purified, and charaterized by the criteria of classical virology.”

Dr. Heinz Ludwig Sänger, Emeritus Professor of Molecular Biology and Virology, Max-Planck-Institutes for Biochemy, München.

Sorry, but this is a big load of bullshit. There’s enough research on HIV to fill a few hundred thousand filing cabinets. I don’t know who this guy is, and I don’t particularly care. He’s a crackpot, professor or not.

Which guy? There’s a whole bunch of 'em. Most seem to be scientists or doctors of some kind.

The quote by Mullis is probably the most (in)famous re: this whole issue. I would think someone would have mailed him that one paper by now, out of those cabinetfulls of research.

Interesting interview of him here

Or are these people just out to look silly?

Look, HIV is the cause of AIDS.

All this rubbish serves no purpose.

:rolleyes:

A quick search did not turn up any Staff Report on the question of whether HIV causes AIDs (no surprise, we haven’t done a Staff Report on whether the sun comes up in the east, either). Therefore, I will move this to the Great Debates forum, where people can express their opinions without worrying about facts.

Cite?

Here’s your cite.

Would a non-HIV case of AIDS still be considered AIDS?

The problem is, it’s a circular definition. “AIDS” is a cluster of a bunch of different diseases. When the HIV virus was “discovered,” the people who had AIDS-like symptoms and were HIV-positive were then diagnosed with AIDS. The people with wasting diseases but not HIV were not considered to have AIDS. So–miraculously–there is a 100% correlation between HIV and AIDS. The HIV test is bogus. Gallo failed to accurately determine the specificity and sensitivity of the HIV ELISA assay because he assumed all AIDS patients were HIV+ and non-AIDS patients would be HIV-. He assumed what he was trying to prove. More circularity. The ELISA HIV assay is useless; it generates false positives with dozens of other diseases and conditions such as hepatitis, leprosy, TB, and malaria. Thus the incidence of AIDS/HIV in Africa is no doubt grossly exaggerated. The HIV ELISA assay can even generate false negatives due to glove powder.

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/chjtests2.htm

“Dr Turner argues that the data used as a basis for the AIDS pandemic in South Africa are generated from the antibody ELISA test, which is fundamentally inaccurate, unreliable and invalid. The antibody
ELISA test is based on the reaction between the unique viral protein (the p24 proteins ‘supposedly’ from HIV) and serum antibodies from a blood sample. Independent data show that p24 proteins, the basis for
the ELISA antibody test, have been found to cross react with a wide variety of uninfected human tissueand blood samples from other disease states. For example, antibodies to candidiasis and mycobacterium infections cross react with p24. Furthermore a warning in the manufacturer’s inserts suggests that the ELISA should not be used on its own for HIV diagnosis. According to Dr Giraldo, many other disease conditions – such as leprosy, malaria, leishmaniasis and other viral infections –give rise to false positive results in the ELISA test without the concomitant HIV infection. Furthermore, many of the conditions that cause a false positive result in the ELISA test are conditions that are also prevalent in many of the recognised AIDS risk groups. A great deal of scientific data indicate widespread non-specific interactions between what are considered retroviral antigens and unrelated antibodies. A positive HIV ELISA test may also indicate previous antigenic stimulation by other retroviral infection. Another concern is that there is no precedent for the diagnostic utilisation of the ELISA test for other viral diseases. In general, the presence of antibodies specific to a particular disease is a major indicator of potential immune protection by the body, which is not the case with HIV infection, since antibodies to HIV fail to confer any immunoprotection against HIV. The ELISA test may therefore not be a true indicator of infection but an artefact arising from cross reactivity of other naturally occurring viral proteins.”

There are some theories that HIV is actually present normally in the population at low levels, like quite a number of other viruses, and that it only enters the deadly feedback loop of immune destruction in people whose immune systems are already weakened. According to the theories, this would explain why the first cases of AIDS were noted among male homosexuals with many partners (foreign substances entering the bloodstream are known to impair immune response) and why it’s so rampant in poor and developing countries.

Monkeys don’t get AIDS from SIV – in fact, it was considered quite a breakthrough when researchers finally managed to generate AIDS-like symptoms in primates (for research purposes). Exposure to high concentrations of HIV can clearly kill humans, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that minor exposure can actually produce the disease.

One piece of evidence used to support these theories lies within the tests for HIV themselves: supposedly, the best test for HIV (I think it’s the Western Blot; correct me if I’m wrong) requires that samples be diluted significantly, or it produces high rates of “false positives”. (I don’t currently have a cite for this… it came up in a discussion of the subject, so take it with a grain of salt, K?) The argument suggests that HIV and related viruses are sufficiently common that the test is actually giving accurate results because it’s too sensitive.

The same people who forward this theory suggest that people with healthy immune systems wouldn’t have any problems living indefinitely with low levels of HIV in their systems, but if their systems become impaired, they develop AIDS. They also suggest that the antiviral drugs used to treat HIV infection might play a key role in the development of AIDS and the shortening of their ingesters’ lives.

Personally, I’m suspicious of these theories. On the other hand, it’s possible that the standard theory is wrong – and it’s easy to imagine that the certainty of the correctness of the standard theory could be extremely reinforcing. After all, who takes these postulations seriously? And if no one takes them seriously, they won’t be evaluated properly.

There’re also psychological factors: doctors historically have been very unwilling to consider the possibility that their treatments cause more harm than good. It can be proven, and bad therapies can be eliminated, but it can be surprisingly difficult.

Conclusion: the idea that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS is mostly crazy, but not completely so.

For those who don’t know, Mullis is both a brilliant scientist and a crackpot. He thought up PCR while tripping on LSD (as the story goes). He testified at the OJ trial that PCR was undependable. He’s a bit off, that guy. As far as I know, he hasn’t made any contribution to anything since PCR, with the patent getting him rich through Perkin Elmer. He is kind of legendary. One of the tests for HIV is based on PCR. This, AFAIK, is his only link to the field. So a quote from him must be taken with a grain of salt.

There are plenty of scientists who deny the HIV/AIDS causality. Looking at their credentials reveals very few with training in infectious disease, virology, or immunology. But this in itself is not damning: that is the strength of science. We judge on one thing only: publication in peer-reviewed journals. They sometiems do publish, albeit in minor, non peer-reviewed journals.

And this leads to the usual clamour of conspiracy, of being shut out and ostracized from the scientific community, of being black listed, of being laughed at, etc. etc. They claim the reviewers en masse suppress what would be the biggest scientific finding of the past 50 years for some vaguely defined nefarious purpose. To me this is stretching it. A much more likely explanation is the science is shoddy and can’t stand for itself.

Looking at Peter Duesberg’s publication record reveals an odd research article in a lower-tier journal (I’ll find out whether they are peer-reviewed), but mostly correspondence, with only 3 since 1996.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Search&DB=PubMed
This at once shows two things. The first is that he is not doing the science behind his hypothesis (or at least not publishing it). The second is that Science and Nature are quite willing to publish his letters and theories, showing that at least these, the top two general science journals, have no conspiracy to leave him without a voice.

It is true that the definitive proof of pathogenicity is fulfillment of Koch’s Postulates. The organism must be isolated and cultured from an infected source, it must be present in all cases of the disease, it must be reintroduced into animals to cause new disease, and it must be reisolated and recultured from those animals. This is pretty stringent, and for many diseases Koch’s postulates have not been shown, for instance syphilis (there is no culture condition for Treponema pallidum.)

AIDS is a more confusing and difficult than any other disease with which we have ever dealt. It is defined solely clinically, by the presence of one of a number of characteristic opportunistic infections. It is characterized by a drop of T4 cells. Neither of these are specific, and there are bound to be rare conditions which cause similar clinical pictures. This is complicated by the long HIV incubation time (no detectable disease often for over 5 years), the polymorphic nature of HIV (it is a retrovirus and depends on a relatively low-fidelity DNA polymerase, leading to many mutations), and a whole host of other factors.

We would predict that there would be people with an AIDS-like condition who are not HIV+. We would predict that there would be HIV+ people who do not get AIDS (variability of clinical presentation, mutability of HIV leading to an infection with a crippled virus, host factors which make an infected person more resistant).

But the vast majority of people with AIDS are HIV+. The vast majority of people who are HIV+ will develop AIDS without treatment. But the real nail in the coffin for me is the protease inhibitor. This class of anti-HIV drugs was introduced in 1996, after being developed as a specific inhibitor of the HIV protease (which is not found elsewhere in nature). It fits precisely in the enzyme’s active site, and has no other known targets. Before 1996, people were dependent on another class of drugs, polymerase inhibitors like AZT, which was far less efficacious. On AZT, the virus slowly became resistant and AIDS was slowed but not halted. People on their death beds who were given a triple drug cocktail including the protease inhibitors got up and went back to work. The three drugs together halts the disease in its tracks, in the process reducing HIV levels to below our limits of detection. The clinical picture fits with the laboratory picture exactly. Sure, it is circumstantial, but to deny it is totally unpragmatic, and much of modern medicine is based on pragmatism.

You may ask what harm it may do to question this. Notably, Thabo Mbeki, the president of South Africa, used it as an excuse to prevent distributing AZT to HIV+ pregnant women. There is very good evidence that AZT minimizes transmission, and it is a relatively cheap and very cost effective way to minimize HIV transmission rates.

And if you want the argument from authority (Kary Mullis, Nobel Laureate, and this whole list of scientists here doubts that HIV can cause AIDS), you will be outgunned. The Durban Declaration is signed by over 5,000 scientists committed to the simple fact that HIV causes AIDS.

Roger_Mexico

Clinicians are well aware of the shortcomings of the HIV ELISA. It is fast and cheap, and results can be quite informative despite a high rate of false positive.

If you are positive by ELISA, you have a secondary test like Western blotting in order to classify HIV status. If you are negative by ELISA, you almost certainly are HIV-.

We say the test is quite sensitive but not specific. It can rule out the disease, but not rule it in. That is why we have other tests.

But what it diagnoses is HIV, not AIDS, and some people question whether only the people with AIDS have HIV.

Again, it’s possible that the HIV virus progresses to AIDS only in people whose immune systems are depressed. It would then constitute an opportunistic disease, much like the other opportunistic diseases that strike people with AIDS, and those are the things that kill. (Technically, no one ever dies of HIV – just the secondary diseases that AIDS brings.)

The crucial difference, of course, is that the HIV virus certainly contributes directly to the underlying cause of its opportunity once it becomes established.

It’s a highly controversial hypothesis, but not an invalid one. Unlike “the sun rising in the east”, which is both easy to verify and something which is generally accepted (because it is so easy to verify), this topic is worthy of debate.

C K Dexter Haven, you should be ashamed, or at least slightly embarassed. Perhaps there should be a Staff Report – at the very least, there are a sufficient number of people suggesting an alternate hypothesis that the case for HIV’s responsibility should be presented at the Straight Dope.

“Everyone knows this to be true” is not acceptable.

I agree! I belive there even is a thick book by Mullis claiming HIV and AIDS don’t have anything to do with each other. The book is generally considered to be bullshit.
But we want facts!

The book is called Inventing the AIDS Virus

Dr. Mullis’s current money scheme is to sell the DNA of famous people embedded in jewelry. After PCR, his contribution to science has been zero, not even incremental work. That’s a bad sign. That’s the sign of a guy who had only one good idea in him at all and nothing else in his mind worth looking at.

I agree with TVAA that a staff report would be more useful than Dex suggests, though I am happy that my level of knowledge on the subject would preclude me from writing it so I guess I’m trying to volunteer someone else. :wink:

Some questions, though, because my books on viruses are several years old:

  1. Is HIV-2 really indistinguishable from SIV?

  2. Is the form of HIV that infects the majority of those HIV-positive in Africa HIV-1 or HIV-2?

  3. Just how related are HIV-1 and HIV-2?

  4. Is there any further thought that Kaposi’s patients had AIDS in the 1870s, meaning HIV-1 has been extant for longer than originally thought and its presence was masked by other diseases?

I am only now learning more about viruses than was in my high school biology text in 1968 and I must admit that they be some seriously weird shit!

Focusing on the eccentricities of one “HIV dissenter” strikes me as a poor argument. Peter Duesberg, for example, was (before the Inquisition came down on him) a well-respected researcher. Oh - and maybe having his funding cut off has something to do with his scarcity of research? Just a thought …

What matters, of course, are the facts of the argument - and so far I have not seen any serious rebuttal past “Everyone knows that.” Even the NIH link

This thread was moved because it was assumed that the question of whether HIV causes AIDS is either already “known” or cannot be determined from the facts. This assumption is somewhat troubling, coming from the good folks at Straight Dope. It would be nice if they had info on recent developments which might support one side or the other. I certainly don’t want to propagate an outdated criticism - but I certainly don’t want to propagate a popular theory that is simply wrong and not only costing billions of dollars a year but lives as well.

QED’s link fails to provide the promised paper that shows that HIV causes AIDS. In the section “KOCH’S POSTULATES FULFILLED” it claims, for example, that HIV has been isolated, citing “Coombs, et al”, but that claim has been rebutted by the Perth Group: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/epreplypd.htm. Since this rebuttal in 1996, has there been any progress? Has the rebuttal been rebutted?

I am, however, quite pleasantly surprised that I’m not the lone nut here :wink:

edwino:

“But the vast majority of people with AIDS are HIV+. The vast majority of people who are HIV+ will develop AIDS without treatment.”

This is a result not of science but of circular reasoning, as I believe Roger_Mexico explained so patiently earlier.

“But the real nail in the coffin for me is the protease inhibitor.”

David Rasnick, protease inhibitor designer, disagrees (among others). Ironically, protease inhibitors seem to be the nail in the coffins of others …

Its been proven that HIV-attacking drugs therapy extends the lifespan of infected persons. Additionally, AIDS* was not present in the numbers it exists in until very recently, within human memory. Yet no one ever recorded these syptoms in nearly the numbers as now. Its a new thing, and HIV is the only rationally known cause as of yet.

*Taking this simply to mean a severe drop in biological germ defenses