Discharged from the military for being gay. So?

Great Debates
1

So something happens and they throw you out of the military for being gay or lesbian. First of all, what kind of discharge is it - honorable, dishonorable, general, what? And second, and more the debate, how, exactly, does it affect the rest of your life? Does it affect future job opportunities? How likely is a future employer to react to the fact that you got thrown out for being gay? What kind of “permanent record” does this get attached to?

Assuming you’re not planning to run for office, and putting aside your personal feelings and ambitions, I’m curious as to the tangible, negative effects this will have on your life. If there aren’t any for one specific person and they decide they want out, why would they not find a way to out themselves (after all, one anonymous phone call can do wonders - I’ve seen it happen first hand)?

Knowledgable information from all branches of the military would be helpful.

Esprix

2

In my experience, you get a quiet honorable discharge, psych code. It doesn’t really affect future employment, but you may not ever get a service or government job again. Former Navy here.

3

When I was in the Navy at Defense Language Institute, I knew two people who - as soon as they finished their language course - claimed they were gay and got out. They both were hired by translation firms within several months. I imagine if one has valuable technical training, employers will overlook the reason for the discharge (provided it wasn’t due to being stupid or dangerous). However, if one has only rudimentary training like Deck Seamen, one wonders if he or she will have more difficulty finding a job.

UnuMondo

4

It’s been a while but I believe Elemenopy is talking about a “Section 8” which is a General Discharge under honorable conditions. It is basically that you had a problem with military service that could not be resolved… It is handed out for any number of reasons. It shouldn’t have a negative effect on an employment application.

5

If one joins the military because one wants that as a career, and then is booted for reasons having nothing to do with ability - don’t you think that would be a blow?

6

Especially if it was a blow that got you booted out!!

:smiley: (someone had to say it - now cue the ‘seamen’ jokes)
In all seriousness, yes of course it would be, but the OP is asking if it would affect job opportunities in the future. AFAIK, in the UK there are no official problems with gays in the military, but I may well be wrong. My guess is that life wouldn’t be too comfortable though.

J.

7

I think it depends on who your commanding officer is. If your CO really wants to push, it has happened that gay servicepeople get general or dishonorable discharges. Most of the time, though, they aren’t complete homophobic jerks and its as stated above. Still a fairly big gamble, though.

Plus now you have known gay and bisexual military members who are not being discharged according to policy, but also not being protected from violence by their fellow soldiers. I believe a bisexual servicemember had to sue in order to get a discharge.

8

Not quite the same, but I got a general under honorable conditions discharge from the Navy for “patterns of misconduct.” All it means is that no, it wasn’t a full honorable discharge. I was not eligible for that on the basis that I was in training for a full year, and was between commands for the second year, so I was not formally evaluated. No evaluations means no full honorable.

The only real difference between an honorable and a general is that I can’t get my GI Bill benefits. Even in situations requiring a DD-214 military discharge form, the “patterns of misconduct” hasn’t been much of a hindrance. It doesn’t mean that I’m a habitual troublemaker. It’s just a convenient pigeonhole that means I went to see the captain and got out at a convenient time.

(If anyone cares, I got written up by some idiot petty officer who had been harrassing me. I verbally defended myself and was written up for disrespect to a superior, use of provocative speech, and something else; I can’t remember. The captain of the ship was known to let divers get away with all kinds of stuff, so instead of listening to the two other people who heard what went on, he chose to take the word of the petty officer. THAT is my “pattern of misconduct”. Doesn’t mean anything, except it was a good reason to get out.)

Robin

9

I have to ask-what about the draft? If someone were to be drafted, and didn’t want to fight, could they claim they were gay and get out?

10

There’s one reason and one reason only for the ban on Gays in the military: Prejudice. It doesn’t matter if it’s the prejudice of the leaders or the leaders caving to the prejudice of the rank and file, it’s still prejudice as the reason. It has nothing to do with job peformance. Heck, the government’s so orgasmic over having straight folk in the military, they even pay them just to be married. And, when posted overseas, they pay them extra to have more children!

11

Being a bit imoral here, but doesn’t the military pay a lot towards further education of it’s Officer Trainees?
Would it be possible for a gay person to use this to their advantage, by joining Officer training, getting the educational bennifits, and then using their sexual orientation to leave before they need to do any ‘real’ military service?
Does the military do anything to get back money spent on training for personnel who leave before they have served all the time that they originally signed to do.
Sorry about the awkwardness of my writing, I know very little about how the US military works.

12

My ex-boyfriend was a Captain in the Air Force. He joined, did his four years, and then went to medical school, which the Air Force was paying for. When he joined, he was in denial about his sexuality, but once he got into medical school, he came out (he was a bit of a late bloomer). However, he loved the military, and had every intention of finishing medical school and then returning to the Air Force to do his residency with them (as was required by his enlistment and them paying for medical school). Then his service would be finished. He was really looking forward to his upcoming tour, even knowing that he’d have to keep his sexuality hidden until he was finished, but he was willing to make that sacrifice and serve his country.

Then someone outed him.

The Air Force wanted to kick him out and make him repay them for his medical school. His argument was that the Air Force was breaching the contract with him - he wanted to serve in the Air Force and finish his obligation to them, but they were the ones kicking him out. In the end, he got the Serviceman’s Legal Defense Fund to represent him, and he ended up getting a general (I think) discharge, and was not required to repay them for medical school.

Now certainly that’s an unusual and difficult case, but it’s something that obviously can happen. The good news is, he’s now an openly gay doctor and doing quite well for himself.

One of the reasons I asked is that my current sweetie is a corpsman in the Navy and joined up to get himself into a better life. He doesn’t regret the decision, but isn’t exactly married to a military career. He still has a few more years left, but over the last year he’s really come out and isn’t exactly hiding it. (Then again, if you took all the queers out of the Navy, there’d be nobody left to drive the ships! :smiley: ) I think that, subconsciously, he wants to get “found out,” get kicked out, and then he can do whatever he wants with his life, but at the same time, he has no problems staying with the Navy as he enjoys his work and he’s accustomed to military life. I’m just wondering what the tangible effects would be on his life if he was, indeed, discharged for being gay.

I’m still interested in the broader, more general question as well, so keep those insights coming.

Esprix

13

My God! He looks like that AND wears a uniform? swoon

14

This happens rather often at Defense Language Institute. I’ve already mentioned two women who left as soon as they finished their courses. It is also common for people to “suddenly” discover medical problems or just start acting abberant to get a psych discharge which would free them for lucrative work in the civilian sector. After Sept. 11, Arabic students were scrambling to get out, since who the hell wants to risk going to Saudi or wear headphones for 12 hours a day? But as far as I know, none were forced to pay the government back.

I was discharged as a conscientious objector. The Officer-In-Charge of the Navy detachment at DLI was convinced of my sincerity, but was bent on making me pay back some tens of thousands of dollars for my Chinese training. He stopped after I complained to some higher-ups who told him that the government could not force me to reimburse them.

UnuMondo

15

Following from my earlier Q.

If a significant number of homosexuals was to join the military for the ‘freebees’ coming out when it was most adventageous to do so, would this be a good way to fight this discriminatory rule, by using it against the military in this way?

16

“Asking if we should take gays out of the military is like asking if we should take oxygen out of the atmosphere.”
–Peter David

Just wanted to share that. :wink:

17

Bippy, there were a few people who tried that after they graduated electronics school, under the notion that there’s no way to prove it one way or the other. (One idiot was seen making out with a girl while on liberty; the command laughed at him when he applied for a discharge.) So I don’t think it’s all that uncommon. It’s a relatively easy way to get out when you decide you’ve had enough, because all the command has is your word, barring any sort of behavior as described above.

Conversely, there were a few people who had to fight to stay in. They were rumored to be gay, but weren’t. YMMV, I guess.

Robin

18

I was at DLI! 92 - 93. Chinese Mandarin, AF. We had a couple guys discharged from the AF for homosexuality as well. I have no idea what they’re doing now.

19

Well he said he’d never date a rice queen, but he never said anything about someone with a uniform fetish… :wink:

Esprix

20

Well, it worked for Chevy Chase. But, during Vietnam, at least, the military was skeptical about people who claimed to be gay to get out of the draft.

Besides, this was the 60s and 70s, where there was a lot less tolerance of homosexuality than there is now. Publically stating you were gay, and having official government paperwork confirming it, was a pretty good way to get turned down for jobs and stuff like that.