But, again, with Dubya, we are talking about Societal responsibilities, which I’m not.
Additionally, the way he discharges his societal responsibilities will have bearing on how you discharge yours. Therefore, you are a party and have right to bitch about the decision/process.
From a worth standpoint, one might say that Dubya has used the gifts of power and influence with which he was born to become President. That has to count for something from a worth standpoint.
Now that he achieved that, how he discharges his new responsibilites will continue to define his worth.
Concerning Dubya the politician, bitch at length. Concerning Dubya the man, consider what he has done.
A presumably excellent husband and father (from most reports.) A man who like other young men granted power and privilege, seemed to get swept away in it, like a Kennedy (sorry, couldn’t resist.) But who nonetheless seemed to come to grips with the responsibilites of his gifts, overcame alcolholism, etc.
Can we impugne his self-worth or say that he has failed his personal responsibilities?
This morning it was writing under the influence of, well, morning - the afternoon challenge is writing under the influence of a whacking great dose of allergy meds. Never say die, though, that’s my motto. Onwards and…somewhere.
I think we’re deaing with a certain weakness of terms here. How can we discuss something you know exists even though you can’t define it or demonstrate it? All you’re telling me is that it isn’t the one form of responsibility I came up with as implicit in modern life. We might as well discuss snibbles. I can tell you that snibbles aren’t crackers. And now I want to argue about their fundamental nature with you. Do you feel sort of underprepared for this debate?
Ethics! O-kay, we’re talking about ethics. Ethics are not the same as responsibilities, my friend. Ethics are, and I’m quoting Merriam-Webster here, a set of moral principles or values, or a theory or system of moral values, or a guiding philosophy.
When you speak of ethics, you have to talk about the kind of ethics, which can be defined by the source.
The first kind of ethics is group ethics - obviously, a group of people has come together to agree on the values and behaviors specific to that group. Examples of this: professional ethics, societal ethics, religious ethics. You’re apparently not talking about this, which leaves…
Personal ethics. This is a system of values that arises from within; it may be based on some group system, but it is each individual’s construct. The thing about personal ethics is that they’re, well, personal. You can’t agree on the essential elements of them - we can’t gather together and decide that every X should believe Y as a personal ethic, because we will create a group ethic in so doing. This is why I assumed that you wanted to talk about group ethics. Do I think that we, as in you and I, might have commonalities in our value system? I’d bet on it. But that would be because we are so similar - Americans, living in 2001, here on the SDMB, arguing about ethics, etc. It wouldn’t be because there’s anything fundamental about what we agree on.
But wait, I think I hear you crying - are you saying there’s no absolute right and wrong? Well. Every society has had a clear definition of right and wrong, and some things have come up on one side or the other so often it seems like some sort of law. You might argue that there are certain things you cannot do in a civilized society because they seriously damage the civilization (although you might be surprised how few universals there are, and most of those derive more from survival of the fittest than anything else), but then we’d be back at group ethics again.
Yeesh. I’m trying to think of how to respond to this without sounding like I’m saying things I don’t mean. You know how, when you read something written in, say, England 1814, you make yourself familiar with the prevailing norms and values of the time and place? You do that so you don’t make the mistake of applying your own values to the work at hand - so you don’t misinterpret what the author has written by evaluating it in the light of your own time.
Ditto with genocide and involuntary genital mutilation (you wanna damage your own genitals, fine by me, provided you’re a competent adult), your two examples. I happen to think those things are wrong, and obviously so do you, and so would most of the folks on this board - I hope with genocide at least I could say all, but you really never know. That doesn’t mean these are universal attitudes; I can give you many cites of times in history and places in the world where those things were/are not considered wrong, were/are even considered laudable.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I am not saying I find, say, Amherst’s attitude to American Indians in any way acceptable or forgiveable. I am, however, pointing out that this attitude was accepted in his time, and ajudged perfectly fine by many people you’d expect to have a better moral feeling. Hence my statement of no universals. Hell, in the future they may think I was reprehensible for my vicious and predatory attitude to cockroaches.
If you think it’s right, it’s right for you. If you think it’s wrong, it’s wrong for you. (Society may choose to alter these judgements if you’re way out of whack with the prevailing group ethics.) Look at it this way: in the 1960s, lots of people did things their parents would cheerfully have described as ‘pissing their lives away.’ But the people themselves, because of value differences, did not think that’s what they were doing, or if they did, they didn’t think it was wrong. It’s all in how you look at things, to quote Alec Bings.
Well, I always loved Scylla from Marathon Man, poor bastard, and I always liked the Scylla-Glaucus-Circe myth, so I’m with you. And kudos to you for acknowledging the basic coolness of a name associated primarily with a gay hit man and a female mythological creature.
Your definition of “ethical” and my definition of “ethical” obviously differ.
What law did I break by being born? If there was such a law, am I ethically responsible for something over which I had no control? How is towing my car (if I had one!) a service to me?
Pronounced “Aloe (like the plant)-wishes” just like Stoid said.
tracer:
I’m pretty sure how to spell my name, Buddy.
I usually go by Al.
If you read Brothers the sequel to Marathon Man, you’ll find that Scylla survived being disembowled. You’ll also find that Goldman engaged in some after the fact revisionism and Scylla has an ex-wife, and seems to have lost his homosexuality.
He’s also gotten much cooler. It’s a good read.
As for the debate, I’m not interested in whether we call this ethics, responsibilities, values, or debts. That’s semantics.
As for the rest, I’ve come to the conclusion that I may not being explaining myself very well, otherwise myself and the rest of the human race seem to have very different ideas about personal responsibility.
I’ll do some mulling and if I come up with anything thought provoking or more succinct, I’ll post.
This sums up my attitude. My eleven month old is having a really exciting time testing out the power of her voice. When she does so in a restaurant, I hush her once, and the second time pick her up and take her outside. This process can take up to a few minutes, and I expect the indulgence of other diners for this period of time.
Just like if there’s another table, and one of the diners had way too much to drink and was obnoxiously loud. Anyone with manners in that group would make an effort to get the obnoxious person out the door. Likewise, other diners realize that the process realistically would take a few minutes.
So, I do expect the indulgence of the public at large for the amount of reasonable time it takes to get control of the situation.
Fortunately, I live in China and restaurants tend to be LOUD.