Discriminated? Prejudiced? Have a kid.

Great Debates
1

I read so many complaints about meaningless, truly meaningless trifles.

But, let me tell you why I even post on this board.

My wife and I had a baby.

What’s that like?
I’ll make it pretty simple. Take whatever work load you and your SO have and addn to it a new job. This job will require 24 hours of vigilance and work per day (you can divide it between the two of you.)

This job will cost you all your money and free time.

You will no longer be welcome in public. Strangers in malls, restaurants, buses, Theatres, you name, it will give you dirty looks. You will lose your social life completely (which is the why I’m here part.)

You will now strategically have to plan out the simplest of tasks with military precision. Going to the grocery store is now a project that you will have to spend most of your day building up to.

Let’s say you want to do some regular work: Like clean the house. In order to do this you must spend several hours attending to your baby and playing with it in order to tire it out so that it takes a nap, so that you can get to clean. Yayyy!

Do you enjoy sleeping at night.
Bwahahahahahahahahahah!
Forget about it.

You will not be allowed to sleep, or have nice things anymore. Your nice clothes will be ruined. You will have to turn your house into a baby proof fortress. You will have to watch your every step and move. You will have to watch Sesame street.

But the worst is the way you’re treated in Public.
The things you will not be able to do, and the looks of condescension, the hostile sighs and comments you will recieve should your baby be so unacceptable as to actually cry on occasion.

The funny thing is, 99.9999% of parents go through it without whining or bitching.

So, the next time you feel put upon, why don’t you just offer it up to Jesus, or the Great Goddess or whatever, and keep your yap shut out of respect for those that have it a lot tougher than you?

Because guess what?

You got know right to complain, unless you have a kid.
You know why?

Because you are guilty for all this prejudice and discrimination and work and pain and suffering. That’s right, you personally.

You were a baby once. Don’t even think about denying it. You were responsible for the endless suffering of your parents.

Somewhere in the great ledger books in the sky, you owe! You’ve caused a lot more suffering than you’ve recieved. You’re a net debit. You’re part of the problem.
What have you done to mitigate somebody changing 5000 of your stinky crappy diapers, wiping your nose, dressing you, feeding you, and attending to your every lousy need ** for fiver whole years!**

Once you have a kid the book is balanced, and you’ve payed off your debt of suffering that you accrued as a baby and child.

Now you can complain about stuff. Now you have a real idea of what suffering and sacrifice mean. Until then, Shut-up and eat your peas and stop your whining!

2

But Daaaaaaad…

I hate peas.

3

It occurs to me that were you abused or neglected as a child, and your parents broke their sacred trust, then as far as I’m concerned you have full license to bitch and whine all you want without having to have kids first.

And should you be a loving parent in spite of it, then you are a saint on earth.

Those of course that break the sacred trust (for lack of a better word,) deserve the worst that God (should he exist,) or man can offer, and they;ve still gotten off easy.

4

Is this an innuendo to people that choose not to have kids? Are you suggesting that people that don’t have kids are worthless and have no right to whine about wrong doings done to them?

seems like it to me.

5

Having a child can be rough, but I have enjoyed every minute of raising my 3 kids. I do not consider it suffering, nor do I consider it some sort of retribution for something bad I have done in the past. You make it sound as though you resent your children for putting you through this hell. My middle child had the worst cholic imaginable…But all I have to do is see his smile, or remember his first steps, or the first time he said “mama”, and I forget about the sleepless nights. Nothing bad about raising a child can outweigh the wonderful moments we share with them.

All that aside, having kids does not grant you the right to whine and bitch about anything and everything. Just look at your kids and think that all the suffering you do is for them, so it’s more than worth it.

6

Amedeus:

You have a point there. Rereading my OP, that’s how it came out.

It’s not what I wanted to do though.

What I wanted to do was try to put a little perspective on the world here, maybe consider the sacrifices that are routinely made by countless millions of people every day, and that in the past those sacrifices have been made for them.

Maybe that puts things in a little bit better perspective before someone goes whining that the world owes them something because there’s no more non-dairy creamer left at the Grocery store.

My point is that the world doesn’t owe you. You owe the world.

Obviously I didn’t do a very good job with my OP, and doubtless I’m about to be punished for it.

Siren:

No, I love my kid. I don’t resent her at all (not that you can tell from my crappy Op.) And, I can’t wait till we have another. It’s a sacrifice, but it’s a bigger reward. To me, it puts signs signs at gas stations in their proper perspective. That’s all I’m saying.

7

Is there the kernel of a debate in there anywhere, Scylla?

8

Siren:

Hah!

Liar liar pants on fire!

Every minute?

What about that minute when your kid reached in his diaper, pulled out a handful of unspeakable, and smeared it on your face?

Don’t tell me you enjoyed that minute.

Or what about that minute where despite all your precautions , they figured out how to open the childlock and poured house cleaning chemicals on themselves and you had to rush them at 100 MPH to the hospital, and how you were never ever going to forgive yourself if they had swallowed some?

Was that minute enjoyable?

Or how about that minute where the neighbor’s nasty dog breaks off the leash and comes running at your baby like she’s a rabbit he’d like to eat, and as you sprint, screaming to get between them your heart is filled with the terrible fear that you’re not going to be fast enough?

Did you enjoy that minute?

9

Well, there would be those that agree. How about they engage in discussion with those that disagree? That’s how these things usually work.

Would that be OK with you?

10

Ok, I’m learning not to assume here. (Progress I must say proudly)

It is a perspective I have allowed myself before, though aided by many articulate people like you. It is a major sacrafice, that I know, and selfishly, I decide not to take that route. I do realize that I am missing out however.

I would argue with that. I don’t owe the world anything. (I don’t think the world owes me anything either) What I give to the world is a gift/sacrafice of mine own choice, not a right that is demanded by the world.

You did as good as a job as any. Everybody makes perceptual mistakes, it is just up to the other person to be polite about it and not jump to any conclusions. (come in roaring in knee jerk fashion)

11

Considering that I never asked to be born, I’d say my parents and I are nearly even now. Maybe after they pay for my next year of college I’ll forgive them completely.

12

Amedeus:

I dunno. You got a lot of stuff you didn’t pay for. You got a body, a mind, and education, somebody cared for you when you were helpless. Hopefully you were loved and cared for as an infant.

Was that stuff free?

Just because you didn’t ask for it, doesn’t mean you didn’t get it. Sacrifices were made.

Remember the end of Saving Private Ryan? Dying, Tom Hanks says “Earn this.”

What you do with what you are given proves the value of the sacrifice, or the price that was paid.

Eithically, I don’t see how your life is yours to waste.

13

Ahh, the old “I didn’t ask to be born” arguement made popular by disgruntled teenagers the world over. I always tell mine I didn’t ask for you either. I’m sure there was a better behaved, more grateful child that I could have gotten.

So, Scylla is this some type of New Wave original sin? I like it. I’m always looking for some leverage. I’ve got twins-- do I get extra suffering points?

14

blacknight:

Which is like the lamest possible answer. The debt is implicit. It doesn’t have to be overt, and your approval isn’t necessary for it to take ethical force.

For example, you owe the company that tows your car when you park it illegally. Even though you didn’t ask for them to do it, a service was rendered for which you are liable.

To repeat: Not having asked doesn’t mean doodly squat. You still got.

The only question here is whether you accept your ehtical responsibility and make good on the debt.

15

I thought there was a slight chance you could be being sarcastic, which made me feel like a gee-golly sillyhead to have missed the debatable hypothesis in your OP, so I read it again, and again, and bless my whiskers, near as I can tell you’re arguing one of two things:

(a) Raising children is hard. Way to go out on a limb there, sport.

(b) It is/isn’t worth the effort But I think you’ve already made clear that isn’t the discussion you were trying to start.

So I guess I was a little confused.

It sure would, by Jingo! Thanks for asking!

16

**

Doesn’t mean I owe the world for it.

**

And if I didn’t have the ability to ask for it I’m certainly not going to pay for it.

I’m an intelligent being capable of independent thought. Ethically I will do what I wish with my life.

Marc

17

Okay…perhaps I didnt enjoy those times. But its amazing how quickly the bad times fade in your memory. I remember the good times the best.

And Scylla darlin…we really need to work on your people skills.

18

If we did, he wouldn’t be Scylla. :smiley:

But to the OP, my take is that it’s possible, in this day and age, to not have kids if you don’t want them. Implicit in this is the fact that those who do have kids will, in most cases, have chosen that route. Therefore, it’s your own fault!

And please don’t start on the “sacrifices” and “hardships” of child-rearing. People with children are routinely given benefits in the working world that single, childless people don’t even get a whiff of. “Family-friendly” workplaces, more flexible hours, days off that childless folks are expected to make up in the absence of those with children, medical benefits for their spouse and children (try getting medical benefits still most places for your non-spousal significant other and/or his/her children, the general approbation of a society that’s obsessed with being fruitful and multiplying (despite some specific areas of disapproval, such as your mentioned crying jags). The world is a place for (traditional) families. Those of us who don’t and never will fit into that niche spend a lot of time cleaning up the metaphorical mess those who do tend to leave…

jayjay

19

You know I read through your list of how much you suffer to be a parent and I can’t say that I am impressed.

And really, if you don’t have enough ethics to teach your children ethics you cannot complain about debt.

20

My first thought on reading simply the OP was that Scylla was making an opening gambit towards his dream. I still sort of lean to that.

The implication that people with kids are somehow worth more than those without I can meet only with a shrug. I have friends and loved ones both with children and without; my friends are more valuable than those who aren’t my friends. Comes to helping people, I’m going to help my friends first. Parent-status doesn’t enter into it.

But of course, that was subsequently clarified, into a sort of vagueish complaint that people should by god not bitch and complain (hmmmm) so much. That, I pretty much agree with. The way I figure it, the universe at large spent somewhere around fifteen billion (give or take) years to arrange everything just so to produce me right now. I like to remind myself of that when I start feeling bad about having a rough day. Puts things in perspective.

Of course, that kind of perspective also doesn’t place any particular value on parental status in the weighing of the silliness factor at bitching about the grocery store rearranging its aisles again. So I suppose that’s debateable–are parents more entitled to bitch about things as opposed to those without kids, since the universe spent the same amount of time making both?

Lastly, having a debt towards the world. Practically speaking, “the world” doesn’t owe anyone anything. But then again, the universe sacrificed nothing in getting us here; things fell into place as they either had to, or were designed to.

A tow truck driver isn’t making a sacrifice. He’s doing a job.

Life, on the other hand, is a gift. It is not a purchase.