Poppycock, even. I incur no debt for that which was forced upon me. I accept no obligations for decisions in which I had no part. I do not equate potential with onus.
A gift accepted freely might carry obligations. A gift which cannot be rejected does not. If I deposit $1000 dollars into your account without your knowledge or consent, am I then entitled to define your obligation to me? hmmmmmmm, Bend over, Scylla, the karmic wheel is turning!
Nah – I prefer to allow free moral agents to begin existence without an inherited burden to an ill-defined personification of the Universe.
point 2
Nobody needs to earn teh right to complain. We are all free to extend or withhold sympathy as our individual consciences guide us. Scylla, if your standard of sympathy depends upon someone fulfilling some perceived obligation from existence, you are welcome to it. Such arbitrary bounds on empathy are not ones that I find attractive, but I wasn’t going to ask you to the prom anyway. You’re too butch for me.
Waste and squander? By whose standards? My son is ethically free to determine for himself the life he wishes to lead and the responsibilities. No one, not even his brilliant and infallible father, is justified in usurping that opportunity or lifting that burden.
I was suggesting that your taking on the responsibility of childbearing (and the phrase I used is yours) doesn’t mean a lot to those outside your circle. Having kids is generally a voluntary act that doesn’t qualify one for Martyr To The Common Good or allow one to look down, in Stoidean fashion, on those who are preoccupied by “meaningless trifles”.
It does, however, benefit me in the larger sense (not to mention providing a return on my investment in education and other child-centered activities) if parents like you do a good and conscientious job of raising their kids, teaching them responsibility, decency, and standards of public behavior. Which is why things like stofsky’s Manifesto depress me.
This simply won’t do! The correct vintage for car polish is Pinot Grand Fenwick. As for car washing, or hygenic douche for camels and/or goats, Coors is prefered by experts.
Yes, he is ethically free to waste and squander his life.
In this post, you used the words “his life”. Why did you use those words? Because the life belongs to him. It is not somebody else’s life. So if we believe in the idea of personal property (and I think that we all do), then he may do what he wishes with his life.
I reject the entire idea that we aquire an ethical debt just for being born. You seem to be saying that people should feel guilty unless they have a kid or find some other means by which to pay off their debt. I refuse to feel guilty about anything.
If you don’t mind me asking, Scylla, who gave you the authority to determine that every single human being owes a karmic debt? In the example that you were quoting, the child will eventually decide for himself what sort of debt he owes, if any, and how he can best repay it, and you don’t have any right to dictate such concepts to him.
Scylla, you made the choice to make the sacrifices recquired when having a child. No one forced you. No one threatened your life if you did not have a child. So your bundle of joy comes along, and it’s hard. You have never had a more difficult job in your life. Sometimes you can’t believe some of the crap you have to go through. But you sacrficed to give your child life.
But just because you are doing the hardest thing in your life does not mean you can pass judgement on what other people can whine about. I personally don’t have a child, and I don’t know if I ever will. But right now the biggest, most important, most difficult aspect of my life is getting married and going to school. For some people this may be easy, for most people it is not. I feel that I have the write to vent OL, or to whine to my close friends about it.
It’s all a matter of perspective. For you the store running out of non-dairy creamer may be no big deal. For someone who is lactose intolerant, or simply doesn’t like dairy creamer, it may be a very big deal. Just because you’ve had difficulties raising a child doesn’t mean that other people don’t have problems too.
Furthermore, you are making a sacrifice to give your child(ren) life. It is a gift, from you to them, and ultimately, from you to the rest of the world. Nobody owes you anything. I can give my parents gratitude for raising me and making sure I’ve always been fed, warm, protected, and cared for, but I certainly don’t owe them anything. And I certianly don’t owe the world anything either. If I have a gift for writing, but I choose to work as a gas attendent because I like the hours, I’m not doing anything morally or ethically wrong.
I also agree with Cranky. I am a very impatient person. However, when I’m out and there is a child (or a dozen) screaming, it doesn’t bother me. I know that the baby is just communicating the only way it knows how. His/her parents probably understand what it wants (food, diaper change, nap). Sometimes I get annoyed when older children sit behind me on a crowded airplane and kick my seat, but hey, what can you do?
In my lofty compassion, I will share a few hard won truths with you. No, don’t say anything, I’m sure you are intelligent enough to realize that blubbering gratitude is the only response.
You don’t raise your kids. Other kids raise your kids. Kids are monkeys, monkeys form tribes, the clan of children is children, you are Other. Therefore, take care that your child spends as much time as possible with children you would be proud to call your own, and you will be proud of your own.
Soon, you will begin to make “that funny noise” when you get up out of a chair. You will sort old screws into baby food jars. You will still meet hot young babes, of course. They will call you “sir”.
There is no cologne on earth that can mask baby urp. Baby urp is the AntiChrist of pheromones. After a while, you will find yourself seeking out wholesome family entertainment. Before long, your whole being will cry out for “Sorority Chain Saw Sluts”. Instead, you will shell out enough money for a perfectly decent bottle of single malt in order to see The Little Mermaid. Again.
If your child is female, you will understand her about as well as you understand females in general. You will be confused. If your child is male, you have only to remember, and you will be terrified. (Go to his crib now, and whisper “Don’t even think about touching my power tools!” Cross your fingers, say your prayers, buy more insurance.)
Fatherhood is a series of indignities, borne with varying degrees of grace.
One last word of advice: when it comes to bedtime reading, you will be drawn to the classics, the Mother Goose, the Uncle Remus. When choosing a book to read aloud, resolutely refuse to even consider Doctor Suess. His merciless alliteration is pure torment to read out loud, one pass through The Cat in the Hat and you feel as though you just bench-pressed 50kg with your tonsils.
Look around you, and take heart. Note the number of people you know who can’t find their ass with both hands who have raised perfectly decent and worthy people. You could try to figure that out, but by the time you do your children be calling you long distance.
[slight hijack]
A father of four girls told me that having daughters was God’s payback for being born a male. (Just after his oldest daughter went on her first date)
[/slight hijack]
The former English major in me compels me to point out that Dr. Seuss is far better known for his assonance than his alliteration.
Neither vowel nor consonant elocution is particularly brutal on the tonsils. The tongue, however, takes quite a workout.
Happily, vigorous oral reading of Seuss’ works helps the tongue develop the necessary stamina, limberness, length and skill to excel in other non-reproductive oral activities. Yes, you, too, can attain the enslaving physical and psycholgical domination of an expert Svengali merely by reading the works of Theodore Geisel aloud. Having repeately recited Green Eggs and Ham over the past five years to my nephew, I can now – effrotlessly – lick the underside of my own chin with my tongue. And the ladies appreciate it.
Where does the whole concept of indebitness come into play? Is it adolescents with poor attitudes or misguided adults that reap these words unto the other? "I don’t owe… They owe me… "
It’s a sad commentary that some individuals must resort to using terms of “debt” and “owe” when it comes to parents and children. I never feel like I “owe” anything to my parents or children, no more than I believe did they of theirs or me. I take it upon my duty as a human to care for people in my charge, because I care about life and liberty, and would want the same of others.
While not only ethical (via karma or any other “debt” you need to catagorize) that we take care of those that care (or have cared) about us, it’s the type of world I wish to live in. I avoid those that walk around with “the world owes me” attitude if they are unwilling to see a better light.
This is all a big joke, right? You cannot possibly mean that I must feel indebted to the parents of the world for shouldering the enormous burden of being parents as some kind of thank you for the fact that I happen to exist?
Good, I didn’t think so.
Besides which, in my own particular case, my mother made me pay through the nose emotionally for my existence.
And up until recently, there was really nothing to admire in having kids…it was an inevitable consequence of getting laid. The people to admire were the people who restrained themselves so as to avoid bringing children into the world unexpectedly.
Oh, and Jackmanii? I have no clue how you arrived at the idea that I am busy looking down on the world that is “preoccupied by meaningless trifles”. Unsympathetic to persons who whine about their miserable lives when there isn’t really too much wrong, yes.
Do I owe my parents or the world or society for my life? Well, as it happens, I do owe one of my parents a lot. But not for helping to bring me into the world. Not because he spent a ton of money on me. Not because he lived through five exhausted years because that’s how long it took me to sleep through the night. Not because of what he gave up, or what he went through, or how hard he worked. I owe him because -
I believe I do. Because I want to.
Why? In large part because he never for a moment suggested that the gift of my life, not to mention preparing me to live it, was anything but a gift. He never indicated that I owed him or anyone else a thing, and he never made what he did sound difficult or unpleasant. (Only as an adult did I realize what working full-time and spending half of every single night up with your wailing, nightmare-ridden, terror-stricken daughter must’ve been like - I just hope like hell that I don’t get payback if I have kids.) He has always made it sound like I was the best thing that ever happened to him. When you’re loved like that, you want to give back.
But when people tell me I owe - not just them, anyone - for some gift, something supposedly freely offered? Oh, man. Then every little thing they get from me they’ll have to pull out with pliers and a hot knife. Maybe it’s just me, but I suspect I’m not alone in this.
That’s why your attitude to your child scares me so, Scylla (and is that for Marathon Man Scylla or Scylla and Glaucus or what?). If you want to say that you owe your parents or society for your life, fine; you’re definitely entitled to decide what you owe others for the gifts you’ve been given. But if you try to make that judgement on behalf of your daughter, I want you to know that you could be opening a box you’ll never be able to close. (For one thing, that attitude will make it very difficult to get through your daughter’s adolescence without murdering her, since if she’s normal she’ll be fully convinced you owe her just about everything plus punitive damages.)
As for the right to complain, I think it’s one of those things you get handed free-of-charge the second you’re born. You don’t have to earn it, though I’d be willing to entertain the idea that you can lose it. (By, say, complaining without cause or cease for quarter-century or so - that might revoke your whine license simply by depriving you of listeners.) You can say that some people complain too easily, but you know what? Some people will always have it worse than you. If the only qualification for complaint is being at the bottom of the heap, then none of us here could qualify. I hate living in the Age of Entitlement as much as the next person, but that doesn’t mean I get to decide who can whine.
Usually, when everybody is lined up against you, telling you that you are wrong, it is at least a good idea to carefully reconsider your thoughts.
I have done so.
Part of the problem here is my badly written OP. The other problem is the knee-jerk reactions of people who don’t bother to either read or think before responding.
For example: The crowd that jumped in thinking this was a parenthood debate, and immediately lined up on the traditional sides and started shooting at each other.
Then there are those people telling me I have a bad attitude towards my daughter for saying that she owes me.
This is something that I have also not said. I have emphatically not said it several times, but that doesn’t seem to stop people from arguing with me against it.
So in an attempt to get this thing on track, let me switch track here.
Let’s say I give you a fully functional hydrogen bomb. It’s a gift. There are no strings attached as far as I’m concerned. You can do with it what you want.
Now even though I have placed no strings on this gift, clearly ethics and responsibility should constrain your choices.
An H bomb is a source of power. With it comes responsibility.
Wealth, education, a nurturing upringing, all the “gifts” that a parent can possibly bestow upon a child provide a form of power.
With power comes responsibility. “Responsibility” is a word that gets thrown around quite a bit. But, what does it really mean in the context of posessing power? What is responsibility if it’s not an ethical obligation, a debt?
So, everyone has some form of responsibility for what they’ve recieved, thrust on them.
Some deny it, or run from it, or refuse to accept it. Others do not.
My point is, and raising a child is just an example, is that if one has not accepted or runs from one’s responsibities, what right does that person have to question how another does so?
Interestingly, this does harken back to my thread about unnecessary whining. The gift we have been given is life, to begin with. And as Americans, even the poorest among us (here on the SDMB particularly) have been given generally pretty cushy lives. I think our first responsibility, if one accepts that premise at all, is to see that clearly and be grateful for it. Put our lives in perspective, if you will
This part I don’t get so much, especially not as it relates to the rest of what you’ve said. But then again, I’m feeling particularly stupid today, so what the fuck.
Are you suggesting that we who have chosen not to have kids are in no position to judge those who do, because we shirked our respnsibilty to the human race in choosing not to bear children? Gosh I hope not, because then I’ll have to take all this time outta my life to argue the point with you…
stoid
No more than the person who has been given a hydrogen bomb has the responsibility to set it off.
I’m talking about repaying the debt, or shouldering the responsibility of life. I’m talking about generating real self-worth, which could be measured by what you do with what you have.
While this is up to nobody else to measure or define, but yourself, I don’t think it’s a wishy-washy “I’m OK, you’re Ok” kind of thing either.
Okay, Scylla, I’ve been giving this serious thought. This is not easy for me in the morning, but we all have to rise to the responsibility at hand. (Humor is what that was. Laugh.)
Does the gift of life in itself come with certain responsibilities? Hmmm. No. Because, see, that would mean bacteria and dogs and cockroaches have inherent responsibilities, and of those three only dogs (some dogs - my dogs) fit the definition. Mostly the other creatures act entirely on instinct, or even less in the case bacteria, striving to live and reproduce and maybe even live after that. No duty or responsibility there, just biological functions.
A more interesting question might be - does the gift of sentience convey certain responsibilities? Again, I would have to say no. This is just a quirk of Mama Evolution, equipping the species with what it needs to survive. Just because intelligence covered our naked asses to some extent doesn’t mean we’ve got to use it to the benefit of all mankind; in fact, under the original terms of our gift, we’re sort of more obliged to use it to further ourselves and screw the other guys. (And aren’t we good at it?)
Now. Here’s what I consider the crux: does civilization (or society) encumber us with responsibilites? In other words, we benefit from the results of a group of humans coming together to create structures that produce results far in excess of anything we could do alone. (Example: a military, even one of the lamer ones, is going to be better at protecting me than I will be all by myself.) So, does this benefit come with responsibilities? Of course it does. And the society defines what they are. In America, our responsibilities include things like stumping up taxes and voting in elections and, trying as it may be, listening to our elected leaders’ various stupidities without reaching for a rock.
(Side note: I don’t see how this relates to the original post on parenting, Scylla - and I don’t think it’s a hijack, ‘cause I’m answering a question you posed - but I don’t think child-bearing is one of said responsibilities-to-society. I could make some arguments that we each owe it to our genetic forebears, or that perhaps it should be a term of our society, but frankly I’ve had enough of that debate for all eternity, and in any case I could just as easily argue the other side. I’m gonna step back and let the parents’-rights folks and the childfree duke it out for the nonce, and Mama Evolution weigh in with the big judgement later on.)
Do I think one of our responsibilities is generating real self worth, or what we do with what we have (to use your phrasing, Scylla)? Not under the terms of our society, which is the only definition of duty I’ve managed to find. I admit it seems like 'tis nobler, and all, but frankly - wanna piss your life away, our society says you can. The major limit on this is that you should pretty much only waste your own life - don’t waste anyone else’s or do serious damage to your kids or anything.
To sum: Responsibilities? Yes. The deep, meaningful, entitling ones I think you mean? No. Further: does fleeing one’s responsibilities deprive you of your right to question how other people fulfill them? (Your question, Scylla.) No. Persistent avoidance of said responsibilities deprives you of your full membership in the society that encumbered you with them, and thus the benefits from said society as well. That’s the consequence, plus whatever punishment society sees fit to inflict. Whether or not you can criticize others doesn’t enter into it in America, since here you’re pretty much guaranteed the right to air your opinions, although I think it’s safe to say that you won’t find a very wide audience if you’re one of the more persistent flaunters of society responsibilities - Mr. Multiple-Axe-Murderer or whatever. (Hmmm. Thinking on it - always tough before noon - in today’s world, you might actually have more people listening to you if you were Mr. M-A-M. Well, that’s a whole other ball o’ wax. Point remains.)
(And I still wanna know the origins of the name Scylla - et Glaucus, Marathon Man, what? - a link or something if you’ve explained this before would be fine.)
Your basic bug is incapable of defining his role or responsibilities. so, the question is moot for nonsentient entities. Agreed.
Perhaps I just hand you an H-bomb as a quirk? How does it being a quirk or not affect responsibility?
Again, I haven’t defined who the responsibility is to, or exactly what it is. I’m just saying it’s there. If you feel (I know it was a hypothetical) that it is your responsibility to use your talents to advance yourself at the detriment of lesser being, than that’s still a responsibility, which strengthens my case.
An interesting question, but one that I’m not yet willing to discuss. Before we can define an individuals responsibilities to the society which he is a part we must first define his inherent responsibilities. It seems to me that if you can justify action based on belonging to a society where it was required, than slavery and such would be OK.
I’m mostly interested in the very basic individual ethical responsibilities and how they might be discharged.
Interesting, so I’ll try to be clearer.
In other societies those responsibilities might have been to commit genocide, or mutilate female genitalia, or other horrible acts. Clearly the responsibility to society can’t be the prime responsibility. There must be something overriding it, otherwise any act would be ethical is society required it.
Again, I don’t think the responsibility is to society. It’s probably to oneself, or to those that fall under the influence of whatever power we’re talking about.
Surely you’d agree that having a child is a tremendous responsibility?
Discharging that responsibility well is surely a measure of some kind of worth.
There are of course other forms of responsibility. I choose this one, because it’s one everybody is familiar with, either on the receiving end, the giving end, or both.
I don’t think people have a responsibility to have children. However, if you don’t, and you criticize the way those that do discharge their responsibility, you are by implication putting yourself in a position of superiority in terms of self worth (as I’ve used the term) over the person whom you are criticizing or complaining about.
Unless you yourself have successfully discharged a greater responsibility than the one against whom you are complaining, then your claim to a higher level of sef worth is disingenuous. As such, it shouldn’t be done.
Again, for the moment, I am mostly interested in the responsibilities of self, not society. (for now anyway.)
Accepting that for the moment. That as far as society is concerned you can waste your life, does that make it right?
If it’s not right, to whom is it wrong, and in what way?
Both. Scylla from Marathon Man and Brothers has always appealed to me. And I too think that I am a rock (on my good days, anyway.)
The myth of the beautiful and kind nymph turned monster is also something with which I identify.
Other reasons to. Mostly, it sounds cool, and I like and identify with it to some degree.
The fact that it gets mispronounced so often is also something that makes me chuckle.
Dubya Bush has taken on the enormous responsibility of being President. If I criticize him, does that imply I’m basking in a higher level of self-worth? Nope. If his actions negatively affect my life, he’s fair game.
Neither do I buy into the argument that having kids automatically vaults one onto a plane of higher ethics and achievement. Scylla seems to be saying that parenthood implies a higher level of responsibility - and that certainly encompasses duty towards the remainder of society as well as to one’s child. If in another 25 years or so Mr. and Mrs. Scylla, still faintly reeking of baby urps, can proudly point to their offspring as a valuable and productive citizen (and not merely the Queen of Dirty Dancing), then I’ll gladly vote them brownie points on the Celestial Index of Esteem.
