Discriminated? Prejudiced? Have a kid.

Great Debates
41

Guess it was just my attempt at one-upmanship. The OP seemed to be saying, “Yeah, you think your life is hard and people treat you bad, you should be thankful you’re not in the same boat I’m in. Someone has always got it worse than you do.” So I was just saying the same thing to you that you seemed to be saying to everyone else.

I guess you can feel just as misunderstood, confused, and/or chagrined as some posters may have felt (especially since the OP seemed to me to have been inspired by Tornado Siren’s thread asking if being an unescorted woman equals being handicapped, which is reinforced by your later statement, “To me, it puts signs signs at gas stations in their proper perspective. That’s all I’m saying.”).

And I just want to add that I didn’t ask for this, I have a chip on my shoulder, my knee is jerking wildly, and the world owes me, FWIW.

42

c: Final answer.

43

Definitely hijacked, Scylla. I dropped out of the “don’t want kids” thread because of the crap you’re getting. What the “child free world” folks don’t get is that they don’t enjoy the right to a child free world just because they decided not to reproduce.

Manifesto:

I am a citizen of these United States, as is my 6 year old daughter. We will eat at Applebees, and she will act childish; she is, after all, a child. We will pay our admission and we will attend movies. We will pay our fare and we will fly on airplanes; it’s the only way she can see her grandparents. We will do whatever the hell we want because we can. Don’t like it? Tough. It’s your decision not to reproduce, but that doesn’t make the rest of humanity responsible to you to keep kids out of your peripheral vision. It doesn’t make the rest of humanity responsible for keeping the least whiff of dirty diaper out of your left nostril.

And now that I’ve vented, I’m not sure how to end gracefully. Live with it…if your parents had your attitude, you wouldn’t be here bitching about our kids.

Good enough?

44

Well, I did know after rereading that I did a poor communications job in my OP, and was gonna catch hell for it, so I might as well take my licking like a man.

Gr8kat:

My Op was railing against meaningless trifles. I wouldn’t categorize your disability in the same way I would running out of dairy creamer. I guess, within the spirit of my poor OP, you would be entitle to bitch freely as well. [self directed sarcasm] No need to thank me, though. [/self-directed sarcasm]

Jackmanni:

I miss your point. Do you consider Childrearing in general a “meaningless, truly meaningless trifle?” Or, do you just consider it so from the perspective of one not involved?

If it’s the latter, I see no point at all. Anything is only meaningful from the perspective of involvement, and nothing is meaningful to those lacking empathy. To a resident of Procyon B, his sun going supernova destroying himself and his civilization is a pretty big deal. To us, 1,000 light years away, it’s a pretty light.

Everybody else:

Awwright, so my premise was poorly executed. Bad Scylla. Bad Scylla. Big deal. Did you know that Hemmingway’s first draft of The Sun Also Rises was originally titled The Guy Who Got His Dick Shot Off?

Perhaps with a little reworking I may yet turn this into a Magnum Opus.

So, Begone you petty naysayers, you status-quo whipping boys, you herdsmen of intellectual packaged dry gravy mix! You bartenders of the skunked and flat lager of unoriginal thought!

Something is brewing within my Cereberum, and the yeast of wisdom has taken hold and begun fermenting the sugary waters of new (or at least reworked,) ideas.

You can stand back and criticize while sipping lightly at your Schlitz, or you can come forth and taste of whatever heady brew I tap when I post my new OP Mark II.

Ask who you are. I’ll tell you who am I. I am he that drinks that new Lager.

I am he that dares drink, who knows that to drink is to die, yet who dares drink on, am I!

(are they buying it?)

45

No.

46

:sigh:

Like I said, the same tired rhetoric.

No, Stofsky, but I have just as much right to expect your child to be quiet in a movie as to expect you to be quiet in a movie. I have as much right to expect your child to refrain from screaming and running around in a restaurant as to expect you to refrain from screaming and running around in a restaurant.

And while I know very well that shit happens, I have every right to expect parental supervision and effort.

47

Sorry, that was hard to resist.

I always did use the john, thank you very much.

And sometimes afterwards, when I happened to be seated near a person with a baby, and they had to change the diaper, I actually helped them out (and disposed of the soiled garment so they wouldn’t have to get up) instead of huffing and snorting at their effrontery.

48

You guys know that this is not the have children/don’t have children debate don’t you?

That one’s somewhere else.

This one’s about earning the right to bitch, and the hypothetical debt/responsibility implicit in the gift of existance/nurturing.

It uses raising children as an example, which may account for the confusion.

Thanks for letting me clear that up.

49

Sorry, Scylla, I’ll stop playing Daddy and address that point.

I owe my parents my appreciation and gratitude for raising me. And that’s all I owe them.

I owe my son the best possible life I can provide for him. I owe him love, support, education, and more love. It was my selfishness that brought him into the world–it wasn’t his choice–so he owes me nothing beyond appreciation and gratitude. I owe him everything.

50

Thank you.

Let me follow that a step further.

What does your son owe for the gifts that have been bestowed upon him? What responsibility does he bear?

Not to you, of course, but in general. Clearly he’s incurred a karmic debt for his existence and nurturing as well as the good fortune to be your son (just keep him away from my daughter until he finishes medical school.)

Is he ethically free to waste and squander his life, or does he have a responsibility? And to what and what kind of responsibility is it?

51

Societal debt? Simply for being alive? None, AFAIC. For being a part of a society? Yes.

Clearly? How so? I don’t see how a choice made of my own free will (and the free will of the kid’s mom, of course) can force a debt upon someone.

If I send you and Mrs. Scylla a Kwanzaa card, is there a debt incurred? Do you then owe me something? Gratitude, perhaps (and only perhaps). But I suggest that you owe me no more than that.

Nope . . . I’ll sic him on her as soon as he quits his job and joins a bad garage band. Mwa-ha-ha . . .

Again, I would argue that he will have obligations, both moral and ethical, as a mamber of society and an inhabitant of the spaceship–but not inherently from having been born. I guess that’s a fine line . . .

52

Interesting. I see it as exactly opposite. I don’t think my daughter owes society or spaceship earth doodley squat.

I do however feel that nonetheless there is a debt there for existence, and the gifts that have been bestowed upon her.

Contrary to what has been stated by others, gifts are not free. You send me that card, now dammit I have to put you on my Kwanza card list!

Isn’t it the Masai that loving giving gifts because of the obligation it incurs upon the giftee.

Don’t many gifts carry responsibilities?

While my daughter owes nothing to society or Earth, she does nonetheless owe. Though no one but her can judge the results, she owes it to herself to use well that which was given her.

And, perhaps, just perhaps, she owes it to those less fortunate then her to utilize what she has been given given (I know that sounds like “eat your peas, kids in China are starving,” but what can you do?)

53

::blink . . . blink::

Sorry cap’n, but if she’s living in my world, she owes me. She has an obligation not to pick my pocket, murder my parakeet, or mooch my beer, just as she owes taxes in exchange for services rendered. She wants to be a part of a community, she better pay for it. Even if that only means obeying the speed limit and not yelling “movie” in a crowded firehouse.

There’s the wall, then.

IMO, a gift that is not freely given is no gift. I do not believe that my child owes me anything. If I weren’t prepared to give him everything I possibly could give, freely and without obligation, I wouldn’t have had a child in the first place.

54

I claim exemption. I don’t owe.

I’m a teacher.

55

andros:

You can give a gift without strings, and the gift itself can carry its own responsibilities.

For example, let’s say you are a person who has been gifted with deep empathy. With little effort you can understand a person’s meanings and motivations. You have superior insight into others.

You could use this as weapon to hurt people. You could know just what to say that would devastate them. Or, you could use it kindly.

The gift itself defines the responsibility.

Or to put it simpler give a very fine and rare bottle of wine to a connossieur. Though the gift was given freely he/she will feel responsible to care for the wine and use it appropriately.
Separately, not picking your pocket is not something that’s owed to society. It’s something that’s a condition of participating in society. Besides, you can’t owe a negative in that way.

56

Scylla wrote:

Non-dairy creamer?!

You think that’s all I whine about? Hah! At least when the store runs out of non-dairy creamer, I know they will eventually re-stock their shelves with it. That’s nothing. You want to know real pain?! How about discontinued food items! Things you knew, and loved, and enjoyed, and that you know will never, ever be back for you as long as you live!

First, they took away my Space Food Sticks.
Then, they took away my Betty Crocker Mug-O-Lunch.
Then, they took away my bottled pineapple juice.
Then, they took away my Betty Crocker Noodles Romanoff with the two-step preparation method that tasted so much better than the one-step formula they replaced it with.
Then, they took away my Betty Crocker Noodles Romanoff altogether.
Then, they took away my lowfat string cheese.
Then, they took away my Lipton Hearty Chicken Noodle soup.
Then, they took away my stuffed pizza-flavored crunchy snacks, whatever the heck they were called.
Then, they took away my Stouffer’s Frozen Noodles Romanoff.
Then, they took away my sold-separately containers of Kraft Macaroni-and-Cheese-style orange cheese powder, which was a vital ingredient in making whole wheat macaroni and cheese.
Then, they took away my lowfat string cheese again.
Then, they took away my snack size Orville Redenbacher’s Smart Pop lowfat microwave popcorn.
Then, they took away my Aunt Jemima Butter Lite pancake and waffle syrup.
And now, they’re taking away my Pemmican brand sweet and hot flavor beef jerky!!

It’s a wonder I don’t slit my wrists right now.

57

No, no, no! A thousand times NO! NO one is obligated to use a gift, wisely, foolishly or at all. If our hypothetical person with great empathy chooses to become a ditchdigger, never healing or harming someone, they have every moral right to do so. Granted it’s wrong to hurt people, but it doesn’t take a gift to hurt someone.

You cannot…MUST not obligate someone with a gift, be it material or inborn. I have a gift for teaching. I’m damned good at it. I got rave reviews as a student teacher from the faculty and the kids where I student taught. I also hated it, once I started teaching full time. I am not being selfish and I owe no one for that gift.

**

No again. Per Miss Manners and I agree with her, once a gift is given, it’s completly up to the recipient to use or not use the gift as they see fit. Should they choose to use your bottle of Grand Fenwick Grand Cru '67 to polish their car, that is their right. (I’d agree they’re being jerks, and wouldn’t give them another gift, but they have no obligation to care for my gift).

You give a gift because A) you’re trying to make the other person happy and B) because the act of giving makes you feel good. Any other reason or expectation (especially the thought that by giving a gift you’ve obligated the other party) stops it from being a gift and changes it into something else.

Fenris

58

Well, yeah.

59

msmith, I have to ring in here.

This is not, as has been pointed out several times since your last post (forgive my beating a dead horse) a debate about child-free vs. “breeding.”

You have a right not to have children. But children have a right to be out in the world. Parents have a right to take their children out into the world and teach them about it. While it is a matter of common courtesy to have some respect for parents in their struggle to do this right (and as Scylla said, it’s a tremedously challenging job overall), I think it’s a matter of *human decency *to not be outright hostile to their children.

Like Syclla, I am disgusted that some grown adults believe its acceptable to register their supreme offense at having to put up with my kid by glaring at him, by rolling their eyes, by making rude audible comments, by ignoring him, or by snapping at him. Kids are very observant and they pick up on this stuff, including (perhaps especially) when they are pre-verbal and the human face and mood is all they have to go by. What sort of kid do you think this creates, when what he learns is that the world is full of unpredictable, impatience, hostile adults? How much respect can a parent teach a child to have for others, when so many of his elders exhibit this kind of behavior? How can he develop confidence when he is helpless and some of the people who have power actively try to discourage his very presence?

Maybe the best analogy is traveling to a country where you don’t speak the language and are still learning the social mores. Consider an environment where all the people smile at you encouragingly, even when they only see you for a fleeting few seconds. Now consider an environment where some of the people glare at you, cross the street to avoid you, make obviously rude asides to their companions. Long-term, what would that latter climate do to you? Especially in contrast to the possibilities of the first? Think about your whole childhood being like that every time you leave the bosom of family and friends.

There are cultures without a high birthrate that still manage to value children and treat them with loving care (and presumably cut their parents a goddamn break at the same time). You don’t have to want kids or even like kids to treat them decently. Why is that so hard? Sure they create little “inconveniences” like crying or rambunctiousness. It’s part of their existence. It’s also an inconvenience when my neighbor with MS takes a long time to cross the street in his walker. I was raised better than to believe it’s okay to sigh heavily and glare at him over this.

Sorry for the long hijack, Scylla. This aspect of your post really hit a nerve with me.

60

I have got to disagree with your whole argument, Scylla. Having a kid doesn’t clean the slate and allow you the right to bellyache. It is your child and was your choice to have the child. Abortion is still legal, thank whatever or whoever you want to think, condoms and other birth control are easily available, and no one forces anybody to attend a religious institution that encourages childbirth or condemns birth control so there is no excuse but pure idiocy and ignorance if the child was an accident. There is no real excuses for the accidental child in this day and age. It is your child, it is your choice, it is your responsibility. There are no bellyaching rights involved. Don’t like cleaning baby poop from the Oriental Carpet? Don’t complain, you should have worn a condom. Don’t like the expense of raising a kid? Don’t moan and groan, an abortion would have been cheaper. Don’t like the lack of Government kid raising subsidies? Don’t whine, anal sex wouldn’t have resulted in a pregnancy. You got no right to bellyache since the kid was 100% preventable and you choice to have it anyway. If the kid is young enough you probably have the option of selling it (depending on the laws of your state) for a profit to another couple. So bite your lip, grin and bare it, and keep that tongue from wagging about how hard the kid makes your life.

Okay, maybe it was one of those freakish planned kids. You know, when the couple plots out the woman’s fertility cycle. Stranger things have happened. If this is one of those cases, you really can’t bellyache, dude