Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit

[Banquet_Bear]

@Smapti

Whose territory is being occupied?

…I’m not fucking Wikipedia. Go look it up for fucks sakes. What I said in the other thread stands.

[Babale]

@Walken_After_Midnight

Why would you even suggest that you’re not surprised that I approve of their work? Out of interest, do you approve or disapprove of the principle of “lifesaving services for the besieged refugee population”?

Of course I approve of providing lifesaving services to the people of Gaza; what I object to is perpetuating the crisis.

But it seems clear that you disapprove of the existence of the state of Israel, and if there’s a group preventing a two state solution from materializing, I’m sure you support it, so that Palestine can be Jew Free from the River to the Sea.

[Babale]

@Walken_After_Midnight

I have occasionally posted links to Wikipedia articles, such as the ‘Israeli war crimes’ article, but that was to demonstrate that people have accused Israel/the IDF of war crimes. The whole article was the body of evidence

Right, and you made no effort to differentiate the ludicrous accusations from the credible. But here you go, here’s just one example from the linked page

James G. Lindsay, a former UNRWA general counsel and fellow researcher for Washington Institute for Near East Policy published a report for WINEP in 2009 in which he criticized UNRWA practices.[93] One of his conclusions was that UNRWA’s failure to match UNHCR’s success in resettling refugees “obviously represents a political decision on the part of the agency” and “seems to favor the strain of Palestinian political thought espoused by those who are intent on a ‘return’ to the land that is now Israel”.

[Walken_After_Midnight]

@Babale

But it seems clear that you disapprove of the existence of the state of Israel, and if there’s a group preventing a two state solution from materializing, I’m sure you support it, so that Palestine can be Jew Free from the River to the Sea.

Again, you misrepresent my posts, as you frequently do.

This is what I wrote a month ago:

@Walken_After_Midnight

What gets me is that many, perhaps most, people seem to hold either a pro-Israeli or a pro-Palestinian viewpoint. It is this binary thinking that perpetuates the cycle of violence generation after generation, as the only solution that will provide a lasting peace is a political one, and that will involve dialogue and compromise from both sides. Since the pro-Israel stance is more dominant on this board I have tried to provide some balance through explanation of the Palestinian viewpoint. If this situation were reversed and the Palestinian viewpoint dominant, I would instead explain the Israeli viewpoint, such as the right of their nation to exist and their people to live in peace.

You described my attitude as “disgusting” and you yourself criticized me for being a “bOtH sIdEs” person:

@Babale

How about instead of dropping snarky half-hearted bOtH sIdEs in every thread about this issue…

So, by saying now that I “disapprove of the existence of the state of Israel” you are being dishonest again and you know you are. Since you’re an avid reader of the relevant threads, I have no doubt that you will have seen me advocating for a political process towards a two-state solution on multiple occasions, so your saying that I am against that is, again, knowingly dishonest.

I feel I have to mainly advance the Palestinian point of view because the pro-Israeli point of view is the dominant one on the board and, furthermore, you are so zealous, hyper-partisan and prolific that a considerable amount of pushback is required to even a attempt to induce a balanced discussion.

I would add, for full disclosure, that while I consider myself a both sides person in the overall Palestine-Israel issue, I lean a bit more towards sympathy with the Palestinian point of view, but not enough to categorize myself as pro-Palestinian over both-sidesism.

[Babale]

@Walken_After_Midnight

So, by saying now that I “disapprove of the existence of the state of Israel” you are being dishonest again and you know you are.

Do I? All kinds of people said they supported a two state solution, while opposing anything that might actually bring that about. How is a two state solution going to happen with Hamas in power? How is Hamas going to be removed from power without military action?

@Walken_After_Midnight

you are so zealous, hyper-partisan

This is just fucking delusional.

[Walken_After_Midnight]

@Babale

But here you go, here’s just one example from the linked page

James G. Lindsay, a former UNRWA general counsel and fellow researcher for Washington Institute for Near East Policy published a report for WINEP in 2009 in which he criticized UNRWA practices.[93] One of his conclusions was that UNRWA’s failure to match UNHCR’s success in resettling refugees “obviously represents a political decision on the part of the agency” and “seems to favor the strain of Palestinian political thought espoused by those who are intent on a ‘return’ to the land that is now Israel”.

Here is what it says in the Wikipedia article immediately after the part you quoted:

However, UNRWA has never been given a mandate by the UN General Assembly to resettle refugees.

In 2010 John Ging, head of UNRWA Gaza had stated that he was disappointed in Lindsay’s criticisms of UNRWA for failure to resettle refugees. Ging argued that there is “no basis to say that it is UNRWA’s decision because our mandate is given to us. I agree that it is a political failure, but we don’t set up the mandate, we are only the implementers”.

Furthermore, Wikipedia describes the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) as a “pro-Israel American think tank”.

M.J. Rosenberg criticized the organization on Al Jazeera for having strong ties to the pro-Israel lobbying group AIPAC and for being founded by a former AIPAC employee.

In a December 2003 interview on Al Jazeera, Rashid Khalidi, a Palestinian-American professor and director of Columbia University’s Middle East Institute, sharply criticized WINEP, stating that it is “the fiercest of the enemies of the Arabs and the Muslims”, and describing it as the “most important Zionist propaganda tool in the United States.”

…

John Mearsheimer, a University of Chicago political science professor, and Stephen Walt, academic dean at Harvard Kennedy School at Harvard University, describe it as “part of the core” of the pro-Israeli lobby in the United States.

[They write:]

“Many of its personnel are genuine scholars or experienced former officials, but they are hardly neutral observers on most Middle East issues and there is little diversity of views within WINEP’s ranks.”

It should be noted that there others have disputed these characterizations.

[Walken_After_Midnight]

@elbows

Everyone must choose sides.

…

I want to see nations, including my own, refuse to pick a side regardless of historical positions previously held.

Here’s some polling.

This poll is of Americans and is from last week.

David H. Montgomery

Among Democrats, sympathy for both sides about equally is the plurality opinion. Republicans, as evidenced with the right-wingers on this board, overwhelmingly sympathize with the Israelis over the Palestinians.

There’s also a significant age factor, with under 30s, unlike any of the other age brackets, having more sympathy for Palestinians.

This second polling is from earlier this year, before the events of October 7th:

(YouGov, May 2023)

Sympathy for the Israeli side is much higher in the United States than in Western Europe, where, aside from Germany, the Palestinian side is sympathized with more. There are still plenty of “both sides equally” sympathizers.

[Walken_After_Midnight]

The UN secretary-general:

António Guterres

A Twitter thread cataloging the lies and deceptions of the Israeli military:

Can the Israeli military be believed?

Thread by @HediViterbo on Thread Reader App

Again and again, the Israeli military denies allegations, and is forced to confess only when left with no other choice.

…

Even a retired major general in Israel has warned of the Israeli military’s “culture of lying and deceit.”

He describes military investigations as filled with “lies, cover-ups, cutting corners, hiding information, and coordinating testimonies”:

[Babale]

NVM. Enjoy your thread!

[Dinsdale]

I’m no apologist for Israel, and seriously question the legitimacy of its establishment, but the fact is that they are there, they have been for 3/4 of a century, they are very heavily armed, and they have held and expanded their territory while holding off numerous attacks. I’ve (only somewhat) jokingly suggested that instead of Palestine, we ought to have given the Jews a chunk of US desert. But, there is no dislodging them now. So maybe we ought to join Israel in completely evicting the Palestinians. Israel gets to keep and defend the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan. Give the Palestinians a chunk of desert out in the American west! Maybe drop them in Utah, and let them square off against the fucking Morons!

[Walken_After_Midnight]

This doesn’t fill me with confidence:

Alex Marquardt

[Kimstu]

@Smapti

Whose territory is being occupied? If Gaza is part of Israel, then it’s not an occupation […] If it’s not part of Israel, then this is a war, not an insurrection, and infrastructure are valid military targets under the laws of war […] It’s Schrodinger’s State.

ISTM that that’s one of the reasons why the Israeli government insists on keeping the occupied territories in this unstable “status quo”.

When Israel wants to exercise control over or unofficially annex territory there, then the argument is that they have jurisdiction over it and they get to determine what rights its people do or don’t have. When Israel wants to carry on a war with Hamas there, then the argument is that it’s an enemy state and so the rules of war between two sovereign nations apply.

@Smapti

Sounds to me like AI wants to have it both ways - Gaza is an “occupied territory” that Israel has no claim over and that needs to be granted its independence, but the Gazan people are also somehow Israeli nationals who are entitled to freedom of movement and equal treatment as citizens.

This, AFAICT, is not so much a “quantum-uncertainty”-type position as an either/or alternative. Either Israel should acknowledge and implement Palestinian sovereignty in an actual Palestinian state, or Israel should acknowledge and implement Palestinian rights as citizens of Israel.

I don’t think anybody’s suggesting that Israel is supposed to adopt both those courses of action, but I think a case can be made that it’s morally obligated to do one of them. Perpetually refusing to do either is keeping Palestinians both stateless and rightsless.

[Smapti]

@Kimstu

Either Israel should acknowledge and implement Palestinian sovereignty in an actual Palestinian state, or Israel should acknowledge and implement Palestinian rights as citizens of Israel.

The first step towards implementing either of those options is the destruction of Hamas.

[Walken_After_Midnight]

Internal British Army document examining 37 years of deployment finds that it failed to defeat the IRA:

BBC NEWS | UK | Northern Ireland | Army paper says IRA not defeated

[Smapti]

@Banquet_Bear

…I’m not allowed to defend some of those citations in this thread any more.

That’s why I gave you the opportunity to defend them in this thread, and you still refused.

@Banquet_Bear

…I’m not fucking Wikipedia. Go look it up for fucks sakes.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Smapti

That’s why I gave you the opportunity to defend them in this thread, and you still refused.

…I’m sorry, you want me to explain the concept of the occupied territories to you?

Is this the first time you’ve heard of them?

I’m not “refusing to defend my cites.” Because you’ve been active in the Israel Hamas threads. I find it hard to believe this is the first time you are hearing of it. Is that true? Do you really need a primer on this?

[Smapti]

@Banquet_Bear

…I’m sorry, you want me to explain the concept of the occupied territories to you?

Is this the first time you’ve heard of them?

I want you to explain whose territory you believe is being occupied.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Smapti

I want you to explain whose territory you believe is being occupied.

…it isn’t my belief. It’s the United Nations. They still consider both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to be occupied. This isn’t something I just made up. Surely you know this.

Occupied Palestinian Territory

[Smapti]

@Banquet_Bear

…it isn’t my belief. It’s the United Nations.

So what is your opinion of their belief? Do you have any beliefs of your own or do you just accept whatever you’re told as long as the person saying it is saying ISRAEL BAD?

[Banquet_Bear]

@Smapti

So what is your opinion of their belief?

…I’ve shared my opinion in the other thread. Both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are occupied territories.

@Smapti

just accept whatever you’re told as long as the person saying it is saying ISRAEL BAD?

You are a fucking idiot. How fucking dare you. I’ll point to every post that I’ve made, that yes, they are extremely critical of how Israel has decided to conduct this war. But they aren’t critical because “I’ve just accepted what anyone else has told me.” Thats a fucking lie.