…the IDF uses human shields. We’ve got documented evidence of them using Palestinian civilians as cover while they do searches or move through territory.
Hiding hostages in civilian areas isn’t the same thing at all. The civilians aren’t being used as shields. Because the terrorists don’t want to be found. It would be more correct to say that they are using civilians as camouflage.
Because they know that the IDF won’t care about civilian casualties. We saw that a couple of days ago. Human shields simply aren’t effective against an enemy that has shown no respect for the rules of proportionality in this “war.”
Oh! Well, then, glad that’s been straightened out! Nothing to see here, people, move along, it’s OK to hide military forces in heavily populated civilian areas as long as nobody knows, because that way the civilians won’t even KNOW their lives are forfeit and get the chance to chicken out! It’s the ultimate recruiting tool - surprise martyrdom!
Now I understand how Hamas have been playing by the book all along and it’s those wicked Israelis making them look bad by refusing to play by the rules of Human Gun Tag and trying to make them It when they’re on base.
…it isn’t OK to hide military forces, terrorists or hostages in heavily populated civilian areas.
It also isn’t okay to disregard proportionality when both planning and executing a military operation.
So-called “human shields” isn’t a get-out-of-jail card. Killing nearly 300 people and wounding over 600 is still an atrocity no matter what you call them.
This was a discussion about terminology. Calling people that just happened to be at a nearby market “human shields” takes away all meaning from the term. They weren’t targeted because they were shielding the terrorists and there was no other way to get to them. They were targeted as part of the IDF escape plan because things went wrong.
The consequences of this operation are quite dire. Hamas announced shortly after this incident that basically any future attempts at a rescue will result in the immediate execution of the hostage. It makes any future rescue attempts pretty much impossible. It’s changed the game.
Its means aid trucks and even refugees are now coming under increased scrutiny. Its put aid workers at further risk.
Once again: the best way to get the rest of the hostages home is to negotiate an end to the hostilities. All this massacre has done is made that process even harder now.
Ah yes, the time-honored tradition of responding to terrorist threats by giving them what they want. One can only wonder why the brother of the man who died freeing the Entebbe hostages has failed to see your wisdom.
I’m cheering for a day when Gaza is no longer under the rule of a man who describes the deaths of his own civilians as “necessary sacrifices”, which you seem to have decided is not an option.
It’s also worth pointing out that there basically isn’t anywhere in Gaza that isn’t a heavily populated civilian area.
I’m not excusing Hamas’s attacks on civilians, but that also doesn’t excuse Israel’s wanton excess destruction of civilian life and then trying to blame it on Hamas’s being in “civilian areas”.
There really isn’t anywhere else in Gaza. Combatants can’t just go out and take over a deserted country estate with acres of rolling farmland all around like at the Battle of Waterloo or something.
Israel deliberately chose to engage in a prolonged and very bloody campaign against guerrilla-type militants based in (in fact, pretty much confined in) a very small and densely populated urban area, under the absurdly unrealistic pretext of “eliminating” said militants. The entirely predictable (and predicted) massive degree of allegedly unintended Palestinian deaths inflicted by Israel in those circumstances is a direct consequence of Israel’s own deliberate choices.
And trying to pretend that Israeli forces are just the helpless tools of their Hamas opponents, forced to slaughter uncounted thousands of Palestinian civilians without meaning to because Hamas is making them do it, is neither persuasive nor impressive.
…I’m cheering for the day when at the highest levels of the Israeli government, they stop calling Palestinians “human animals”. For when Israel ends their regime of apartheid, of administrative detention, of demolishing homes in the West Bank, of the siege of Gaza that has lasted over a decade.
Nobody here is defending Hamas. But this war has been an absolute disaster in terms of dealing with Hamas. It targeted civilian infrastructure, its targeted civilians. Its turned much of the world against Israel.
There is no plan and no strategy to get rid of Hamas. There is no plan or strategy to rescue the hostages. The last eight months of war have made that clear. The war will not end Hamas. So it either results in the end of Gaza, or we have a negotiated end to hostilities.
We have some friends whose kid is going through a rough time. He’ll destroy something and then blame his parents: “it’s your fault for not letting me stay up late.” “It’s your fault for not buying me that game.”
It sounds really stupid when he blames them. Like, does he actually think anyone accepts that excuse?
Oh well, we cut him slack because he’s a kid. I’m sure he won’t be such an idiot when he grows up.
Between your defending their use of human shields, describing them as “fighting for liberation from oppression”, rationalizing attacks on ambulances and raiding of aid deliveries, justifying the killing of hostages and opposing their rescue, and making excuses for 10/7, it sure sounds like you are.
Hamas is getting Gazan civlians killed every day that they continue with this war. Every Gazan civilian killed in combat in the past eight months is the direct result of the choice they made.
Whose fault was it that hundreds of thousands of European civilians died in the liberation of Europe - the Allies for liberating them or Hitler for occupying them?
That’s not what you said. You said Hamas is actively killing Gazans and blaming Israel. Last I checked, the IDF was the one lobbing bombs and pulling triggers with Palestinians in the sights. Again, unless you have evidence and not more rhetorical horseshit allowing you to remove all agency and blame from Israel?
…I’ve taken particular care to choose my words carefully. And here you are, yet again, smashing that nuance with a sledgehammer.
I didn’t “defend their use of humans shields.” I rejected the characterization of people walking through a market as human shields.
And when I talked about liberation, it was on the context of your claim that “the cause dictates the morality.” My argument is that the cause and the morality of how you chose to fight for that cause is distinct. Your cause might be just, but committing a genocide to achieve that cause is morally bankrupt.
I haven’t included all of the strikes on ambulances in Gaza by the IDF because there have been so many its hard to keep track. But another one for good measure:
Every accusation is a confession. Every single time.
And this is just an outright fucking lie. I explained the Hamas position, I didn’t defend it. These were measures that weren’t introduced when the last two hostages were rescued during the Super Bowl. The needless slaughter of innocents at Nuseirat changed the equation.
I oppose the manner in which the rescue was conducted. I’m over the moon that the hostages are safe.
Another fucking lie. I’ve condemned it. I’ve called it an atrocity. A warcrime. It shouldn’t have happened. The hostages should be released. The people responsible should be made to pay for it. There are no excuses for that clear act of terror.
That would be because you are debating here in bad faith.
The West, you included, are responding exactly how Hamas wants. Their callous use of civilian lives as ammunition in a PR battle against Israel is working because the West is reacting exactly as Sinwar predicted they would. Great job! You’re showing the world that hiding behind civilians is an effective tactic.
The fact that you call what Israel is doing “massacring” civilians is precisely proof that getting your own civilians killed is enormously effective.
Meanwhile, in reality, I don’t know in what world the IDF’s operations are “ineffective”. They have killed at the very least ten thousand Hamas fighters, destroyed significant portions of their tunnels and infrastructure, and - if Hamas keeps being stupid enough to reject the gifts the West keeps trying to give them - then this may yet end with the permanent replacement of Hamas.
