As the author of the Guardian piece inadvertently points out, “Think of the children” rings hollow when the children are the ones charging you with AKs and being taught in school that the greatest thing they can aspire to is to die while killing as many Jews as possible.
Who?
I cannot deal with this amount of pure poison at this time. The last time I saw this level of hatred towards children was a WWII teacher in Jr. High that definitely had a minority view on the subject.
Have you noticed how no one – not even the Israelis – are chiming in to support you in this thread? Why do you think that is?
Y’all have literally run our Israeli posters out of this thread with your rhetoric.
Frankly I’m not even sure why I’m still following this one-sided dogpile.
Well, he was here two posts above mine, so maybe not literally.
But maybe we’ll see if he agrees with your sentiment and doesn’t care about Palestinians at all.
You can’t justify war crimes by declaring that it’s the fault of the victims’ side for not losing harder. Even if the victims’ side has also committed crimes of its own.
It’s not right to try to excuse the murders and kidnappings of civilians by Hamas on the grounds that Israelis could have avoided them by ending their unjust occupation. And it’s not right to try to excuse Israel’s genocide of Gazans by saying that Hamas could avoid them by surrendering.
Seriously, read the linked article by Bartov. He’s an Israeli-American, ex-IDF, and a historian who’s spent his life studying the intersections of war and antisemitism, so his condemnations of Israeli actions and attitudes aren’t made lightly.
Israel is under no obligation to go easy on Hamas. Hamas, on the other hand, has an obligation to protect its citizens that they are failing at by continuing to fight when it is clear that they cannot win or prevent an Israeli victory.
Gaza was not under Israeli occupation when Hamas launched its pogrom, nor was its prior or current occupation “unjust”.
There is no genocide of Gaza. The only genocide that has been attempted in the region is the genocide of the Jews by Iran and its proxies such as Hamas.
From the essay that you clearly have not bothered to read:
On 10 November 2023, I wrote in the New York Times: “As a historian of genocide, I believe that there is no proof that genocide is now taking place in Gaza, although it is very likely that war crimes, and even crimes against humanity, are happening. […] We know from history that it is crucial to warn of the potential for genocide before it occurs, rather than belatedly condemn it after it has taken place. I think we still have that time.”
I no longer believe that. By the time I travelled to Israel, I had become convinced that at least since the attack by the IDF on Rafah on 6 May 2024, it was no longer possible to deny that Israel was engaged in systematic war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocidal actions. It was not just that this attack against the last concentration of Gazans – most of them displaced already several times by the IDF, which now once again pushed them to a so-called safe zone – demonstrated a total disregard of any humanitarian standards. It also clearly indicated that the ultimate goal of this entire undertaking from the very beginning had been to make the entire Gaza Strip uninhabitable, and to debilitate its population to such a degree that it would either die out or seek all possible options to flee the territory. In other words, the rhetoric spouted by Israeli leaders since 7 October was now being translated into reality – namely, as the 1948 UN Genocide Convention puts it, that Israel was acting “with intent to destroy, in whole or in part”, the Palestinian population in Gaza, “as such, by killing, causing serious harm, or inflicting conditions of life meant to bring about the group’s destruction”.
He is a recognized expert on genocide, and an Israeli. What are your qualifications to declare that it’s not genocide?
Where are the death camps? Where are the firing squads? Where are the crematoria? Where are the mass burials of women and children? Where are the forced relocations? Where are the soldiers going door to door and loading people into vans and trains? Where is the deliberate starvation? Where is the deliberate targeting of aid? Where is the indiscriminate targeting of non-belligerants? Where is there ANY evidence of civilians being deliberately targeted?
There isn’t any. If Israel had wanted to commit genocide this would have been over in a month. Genocide would be easy compared to the war they’ve been waging. The only reason civilian casualties are happening is because Hamas uses civilians as human shields and if the Gazan nation (if such a thing can even be said to exist) is no longer viable when this war is done it will be their own fault for continuing a fight they can’t win.
This is exactly the sort of dehumanizing tunnel vision that Bartov is talking about: pretend that Israel’s “fighting Hamas” exists in a vacuum, outside of which Israel has no responsibility and no consequences.
“There is no genocide and if there is it’s the dead victims’ own fault.”
Bartov’s article makes it very clear that you’re far from alone in your denial of reality, but that doesn’t make you right.
Israel’s responsibility is to protect its citizens.
As Bartov writes:
He’s right. The people of Israel have reached a breaking point. This cycle has repeated itself too many times in the last 80 years;
There are only so many times you can do this to a people before they stop caring what you think of them.
He is, but not in the way you’re trying to spin it.
Ukraine, on the other hand, has an obligation to protect its citizens that they are failing at by continuing to fight when it is clear that they cannot win or prevent an Russian victory.
But I’m certain that that’s different, for reasons…
Did Ukraine attack Russia?
That might be one difference.
Not that you care.
You’re right, @TroutMan, this is a must-read essay.
It is striking how much effort Bartov makes to understand the psychologies of those on the “other side,” whether they be the Wehrmacht troops on the Eastern Front, the Palestinians, or the right-wing Israelis who disrupt his lecture.
It was also poignant to read how this committed, principled humanist returns to his home country and finds himself virtually alone in his views.
One thing I would really like to understand, and which was perhaps elided in this essay, is whether Bartov thinks there might ever be a context in which mass violence is, in fact, justified. He quotes Moshe Dayan’s speech, which brings into sharp relief the tension between self-defense and aggression. Yet Bartov, it seems to me, does not address that tension in his own words.
Because it’s not worth dealing with the rest of you, I’ve given up. None of you have a realistic grasp of the situation but it won’t stop you from moralizing about it till Kingdom Come, so the only thing continued discussion will achieve is increasing my blood pressure.
Yeah, this.
And this is why you’re not worth responding to. I do care about Palestinian lives, which is why I want to do things that will change the status quo away from eternal warfare.
That’s why there’s Ukranians in Russia? Fucking moron…
When Ukraine starts deploying military assets in hospitals and schools, while they are in use for their intended purpose, you might have a point. Until then, you’re just a disingenuous shithead.
Thanks for making my point! You are right, Hamas attacked Israel, not the other way around. (Despite braindead Russians claiming that Ukraine doesn’t exist and is occupied Russian land handed over by Western Imperialist powers… Hmm, sounds familiar.)
Umm, guys? You might want to notice that what I did was change the details on what Smapti said to see if he’s consistent, it isn’t my position.