Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit

…bullshit.

But I didn’t oppose nuclear power in the Fukushina thread.

I told you over and over and over again I didn’t oppose nuclear power. I said that if America wants to build more nuclear plants as part of a larger energy strategy, I’m JUST FINE WITH THAT.

You even conceded, at the end of our discussion, that I hadn’t been saying that. So did you just forget?

My position in that other thread was relatively straightforward. That Japan had broad evidence from a number of reports from experts in the field that the area around Fukushina was unsafe, that I’m not going to second-guess those experts, that Germany balanced a range of issues before deciding to abandon nuclear power many years ago, once they committed to that course they had to make a number of decisions that were not optimal, but also weren’t the worst things in the world. And that if America wanted to pursue more nuclear power, then go for it! But they need to hurry up because they are already facing multiple crises that are costing peoples lives.

The problem wasn’t with anything I said. It’s what you imagined I said.

And its the same thing here. My position on this war is relatively uncomplicated. I think the events that happened on October the 7th were unfathomably evil and committed by a terrorist organization that must be destroyed. But Israel is the occupying power, and under the Geneva conventions and international law have obligations that they must meet. And even if Israel don’t consider themselves the occupying power, they are still signatories to the conventions and obliged to follow international law.

I think the siege is collective punishment, an obvious breach of international law, and is something that needs to be stopped immediately. I think the bombing campaign lacks transparency and clarity and Israel refuses to answer questions on what they are doing to minimize civilian casualties. I think that refusal, along with a death toll that is well above what we have seen in other recent conflicts, demonstrate a complete disregard by Israel for complying with the Geneva Conventions and international law.

You can disagree with me if you like. But that’s an opinion that I came up with all by myself. And my sources have largely been from humanitarian agencies. I don’t think any of them have been bad.

I said the UN considers Gaza to still be an occupied territory, So internationally, thats the legal status. I’m aware that Israel disagrees. But we were talking about obligations under international law. As the occupier, Israel has a certain set of obligations. If they aren’t the occupier, as a signatory, they still have obligations.

When did I make that claim, exactly?

This seems to be a/the key point of contention in this matter.

It can do better.

…and then bombed the evacuation corridor and evacuating ambulances…

I’m sure that’s a huge consolation to the dead children and their parents.

Oh, yeah, totally not an occupation…

> I think Israel will, for an indefinite period will have the overall security responsibility because we’ve seen what happens when we don’t have it. When we don’t have that security responsibility, what we have is the eruption of Hamas terror on a scale that we couldn’t imagine.

according to Hamas.

There’s nothing I or anyone else can say to bring back dead children. We can only hope that a greater good comes of this unfortunateness.

“Indefinite” meaning “until a responsible Gazan government can assume control”, hopefully, because that’s the only long-term solution that’s viable. In any event, Netenyahu is an ass and I hope the people of Israel toss him as soon as they can.

On that note, a majority of New York Times readers disagree with you.

at least 70% of NYT readers never played Command & Conquer Red Alert.

Is the Financial Times Hamas?

analysis of the video footage appears to rule out most explanations aside from an Israeli strike.

Like I said, never any condemnation. Always just justify, justify, justify…

“But…Warrabaht Hamas!” is all you’ve got to defend atrocities. Well, that and “Hey, sometime war crimes are great!”

I’m sorry I clumped you and Babale in together as somehow being on the same side. You’re clearly the frothing-at-the-mouth Palestine hater that’s been colouring my view of the entire pro-Israel side. Apologies, @Babale.

Indefinite means whatever the Bibi and the IDF wants it to mean.

A majority of the New York Times readers can go fuck themselves. Baby-killing is never justified.

Although you mean a plurality, not a majority.

I have no idea, because that article is paywalled.

When Israel does something worthy of being condemned, I’ll let you know.

You can tell me what I believe all you want. I’ve openly stated a free, independent, and safe Gaza is the ideal long-term solution. You seem to be content perpetuating the status quo where Gaza’s government neglects its people and uses them as human shields in a war it can never possibly win.

42+28 = a majority.

…I’ve got no problems with Babale. And I really don’t even like arguing with Babale.

“Not Sure” doesn’t count.

I quoted the most relevant sentence.

Like I said - Gazan civilians are not a concern to you, this is clear despite all your pretty words to the contrary.

If that were true, then we’d be in agreement.

:+1: :grinning: :+1:

Thank you for this.

Too many people in these threads, and in general, are far too entrenched in one political side or another. Folks like Smapti and Sam Stone make things so much worse.

This. So much this. Israel has taken the bait and is doing enormous harm to Israel. And killing an awful lot is innocent people. Lose lose lose.

The UK never defeated the IRA. I’m not convinced that “defeating” Hamas is necessary or sufficient for peace. Or even for “less danger to Israelis”.

Seriously? Then how do they avoid getting hit again and again?

When someone tries to hit you, you have choices. You can hit back. You can run away. You can put something between you and their arm. You can try to talk them out if it. Your can get their buddy to talk then down. You can even turn the other cheek. Or pull a gun. There are always choices.

I’m not advocating for Israel to turn the other cheek. But they seem to have pulled out a shotgun in a bar fight, and a lot of people near the dude who started the fight now have holes in them.

That’s an interesting statement to make. When Israel moves in on Gaza City with troops and tanks, do you think the civilians left in the area will be any better off?

Edited to add - I take some of that back. The IDF IS in fact making more of an effort than Hamas is by placing tanks and other assets along the evacuation route - for the protection of Palestinians making an attempt to escape. Protection from Hamas, who has already demonstrated a willingness to execute civilians along that route.