Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit

The BBQ Pit
1801

Do you think most Palestinians who get hurt by Israel in interrogations or whatever are innocents who have nothing to do with terrorism? Or do you think it’s actually a pretty rare thing that definitely should stop, but isn’t the motivating factor for Palestinian violence against Israel (not to mention Hezbollah’s and the Houthi’s violence… Are they also mad because Israel roughed up their dad before they moved to Lebanon or Yemen? :roll_eyes: )

Do you think most Palestinian houses that are destroyed had nothing to do with terrorism, or is that actually a pretty rare occurrence, and houses being destroyed because they were used for terror is the more frequent event?

Do you honestly think that if Israel wasn’t doing these things in the West Bank that Oct 7 wouldn’t have happened? That Hezbollah wouldn’t be attacking?

1802

Putting my sarcasm aside, it doesn’t matter if mistreatment in the West Bank is a motivating factor in violence or not (it’s wrong and harmful either way). And there’s no way I could know with any sort of accuracy what percentage of brutalized Palestinians have some connection, tenuous or not, to actual terrorists. There’s no way you could, either. Palestinian sources are strongly motivated to show any and all victims are entirely innocent, and Israeli sources are strongly motivated to show them as guilty of something. I do know that the West Bank settlements are illegal, and this Israeli government has done nothing significant to curb their behavior, up to and including theft and violence.

For the record, no, I don’t believe it was the motivation for Oct 7th, Hezbollah attacks, etc. It very likely is a big part of the motivating factor for local violence in the West Bank (when perpetrated by Palestinians). When they have no voice, and no rights, then some of them will respond to settler theft and violence (and Israeli government toleration of it) with violence of their own (they’re only human!).

And most importantly for the bigger picture, this government’s actions and policies in the West Bank demonstrate that they have no real interest in human rights and peace, and it’s entirely reasonable to criticize them for that.

1803

Ok, so this whole fucking discussion was a waste of time, then? Great.

The entire reason for this tangent was you saying “but what about the West Bank” in response to me saying “Palestinian opposition to Israel isn’t motivated by perceived oppression by Israel, it’s motivated by a desire to entirely remove Israel from the region”. So it kinda does matter for this context, because I never argued the point that what the settlers do is fine or should continue; I argued that it isn’t the cause of the conflict continuing.

If you agree that even without the settlements Hamas and Hezbollah would have attacked Israel, and therefore that even without the settlements we wouldn’t see the Palestinians agreeing to a two state solution, then there’s nothing to argue over. The position that the settlements and the actions of the settlers are A-OK is not one that I’ve ever taken, so it’s not one you need to demolish.

1804

The behavior of the WB settlers, and their enablers in government, is the biggest reason for continued violence in the West Bank. Do you disagree with this?

1805

Depending on how you’re defining your terms, that may be true. A lot of the violence in the West Bank today is between so called Hilltop Youth (crazy motherfuckers with shoulder length payot who do dumb shit like take their goats into the hills and right up to Palestinians villages where they pick fights with Palestinian shepherds) and Palestinians. That’s obviously on the settlers, even when the fights escalate to raids on each others’ villages.

On the other hand, I don’t think the settlers are the cause when the IDF takes out a Hamas cell in the WB (sometimes in coordination with the Palestinian Authority), or when people from the West Bank come into Israel to do stabbings or bombings in Jerusalem or elsewhere.

But if we’re talking about violence in the West Bank proper, between settlers and Palestinians, I don’t have a ton of sympathy for the settlers. It is beyond stupid to choose to live there, and downright suicidal to pick fights with the Palestinians.

1806

Okay, not much disagreement here. Great!

A few different points. Whether it’s the “cause” or not of particular incidents, bad behavior breeds bad behavior. One of my consistent criticisms of many recent Israeli actions is that they’re creating terrorists/extremists with every bomb that harms civilians. Are they killing more than they’re creating? No way to know.

But the settlers, and their government enablers, are also creating terrorists and extremists. And they’re definitely creating more than they’re killing. And more than that, they’re creating circumstances in which even normal humans might become sympathetic to terrorists and extremists. That’s why it’s so important to the larger issue. Israel is allowing such evil actions, and evil begets evil. That there is plenty of evil from Hamas and Hezbollah doesn’t change this. It’s in Israel’s power to (mostly) stop this particular evil (the bad behavior in the WB), and again and again they’re failing to do so. They’re not even trying.

1807

And do you not think this intransigence on the Israeli part is due to the revanchism of the Palestinian side in even wanting a Jewish State to exist?

1808

Maybe it’s a small part of it, but I suspect it’s more of an excuse than an explanation. Not sure how I’d know for sure.

1809

Well,duh. The only people who become Settlers are religious nutjobs, but there are two reasons why someone might support (or at least tolerate) them: shared religious conviction, or security concerns. And most Jews aren’t nearly that religious; and most highly religious people don’t become Settlers - many of the ultra Orthodox don’t even like the state of Israel all that much, they believe it isn’t REALLY a Jewish state unless the Messiah come back and founds it.

By far the bigger reason is that when massive terrorist attacks happen again and again, people say “Hmm, maybe a settlement wouldn’t be such a bad idea, that way there’s someone between me and the people who keep trying to kill me”.

How did Andy put it?

Things like Oct 7, or the massive rocket barrages from Hezbollah, create circumstances in which even normal humans might become sympathetic to settlers and extremists.

It’s interesting to me how Andy can see that this might be the case with Palestinians supporting Hamas going into Israel and dismembering and raping people; but he can’t seem to apply that same logic in order to understand why the larger Israeli public is scared into tolerating settlers.

1810

Ryan Liam,

No, for the most part it’s convenient propaganda. Palestinian actions in the west bank are driven by proximal events:

" After Palestinian gunmen killed one Israeli and injured five Israelis near Ma’ale Adumim, Israel’s far-right Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich in February 2024 announced a “settlement response” after speaking to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, as “any harm to us will lead to more construction and more development and more of our hold all over the country”

Even repeated use of the term ‘settlement’ is propaganda because it conjures up visions of rural folks trying to get along, like Little House on the Prairie. Kedar is a bedroom community for Israeli commuters. It is a modern real estate development with trees, parks and a large swimming pool.

For a Palestinian farmer who cannot water his crops because of oppressive, discriminatory state regulations, the presence of a swimming pool on confiscated land is sufficient motivation for resistance.

Hatred of Israeli is convenient propaganda for both sides, it avoids having to solve any problems.

1811

Hey numbskull, you may not realize this, but Israel doesn’t call them settlements, because Israelis don’t speak on English. You fucking mouth breathing moron.

In Hebrew, a settlement (as in, a generic term for a place where humans live) is Yeshuv. The process of settling somewhere is called “Hityashvut”. The root word is “Shev”, meaning to “sit”. As in, a settlement is a place where you sit, or settle.

Settlements, as in the place where settlers live in the West Bank, is called “Hitnachlut”, and is a specific term for when you go into land that isn’t yours and settle it. The root word is “Nachal”, meaning “stream”, in reference to the way that water pushes its way into crevasses.

It’s not our fault that English doesn’t have two words for these two different meanings, yet here you are, accusing us of “propaganda”.

You are ignorant, stupid, hateful, and vile. Fuck you and your confidently ignorant statements on this topic.

1812

That’s a feature, not a bug.

1813

It’s a feature that you don’t have a word with negative connotations to describe settlements in the West Bank but instead use the same word for any human habitation site? Fascinating.

What purpose does this feature accomplish, pray tell?

1814

Thanks for the response.

The audience for this particular propaganda is not Israel, rather it Is the world at large, thus, in my case, the use of English.

1815

…and how exactly would Israel control which word the English speaking world uses to describe the settlements?

1816

Oh! Sorry, my bad, I forgot that we control the world’s media for a minute there.

1817

What led you to believe I wouldn’t be able to see this? Of course many Israelis would be more tolerant of their own extremists based on these attacks! Remember, evil begets evil? That goes both ways, quite clearly.

None of this justifies or excuses the Israeli government’s tolerating and enabling brutality and other mistreatment in the WB.

I wish you’d stop putting your frustration with some of the idiocy of the Palestinian rights movement on me. This is like the millionth time you’ve made an incorrect inference about my beliefs that wasn’t based on my actual words.

1818

They repeatedly use the term themselves, ie " Minister Bezalel Smotrich in February 2024 announced a “settlement response”. From the quote above.

1819

I know this one! By accusing anyone that describes going into land that isn’t yours and settling it as the crime against humanity that it is of The Blood Libel!

1820

Sure! And do you think the fact that the Israeli voting public doesn’t have a burning desire to get rid of the settlements may have something to do with the fact that every two state peace offer we made has been rejected, and that there isn’t a single influential voice on the Palestinian side pushing for that end goal?

The bottom line is that of the two sides, one has proven willing to agree to a two state deal, and one has not. And rationally, if you are a Palestinian, and you see international condemnation of Israel whenever your terrorist governments start shit, why would you support a two state solution?

What motivation do you have to agree to this, when if you just keep doing what you’re doing, eventually - if international voices are to be believed - the world will come swooping in to save you and give you all of Palestine, from the river to the sea?

Of course, in reality, these are empty promises. College kids in the US or Europe can’t give Palestinians all the land from the river to the sea, and their governments aren’t about to swoop in and save the Palestinians. Hell, none of them are even willing to come and help manage Gaza until a permanent Palestinian government can be erected; they’re not gonna come in to fight Israel for the Palestinians, either.

But how the fuck is a Palestinian who was educated by Hamas or PA controlled UNWRA schools and can mostly consume Hamas or PA controlled media going to know that? He isn’t; so when his leadership tells him that all this carnage is worth it because it is winning international support against the Zionist pigs, he’s gonna believe it.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The real problem on both sides is people who believe that if they keep doing what they’re doing, they can get the whole pie. Settlers think that if they just drop more settlements, the Palestinians will leave and Israel will be able to annex the West Bank; and Palestinians believe that if they keep fighting Israel, they’ll either win through a miraculous victory, or inspire the other Arab states to help, or inspire the world to help, and Israel will be wiped out entirely.

As long as there are people who believe this, they will act accordingly. It doesn’t matter if they hate each other or not. You can hate your neighbor, but if you don’t believe that attacking him will work out for you, you won’t do it.

It’s not like antisemitism disappeared from Egypt, or Jordan, either when we made peace or today; when their leaders gave up on their pan Arabic dreams, they made peace with Israel.

Likewise, the only way for peace to come between Israel and Palestine is for Israelis and Palestinians to both realize that we are stuck with one another, and that no amount of fighting will ever drive either of us off the land. We don’t have to like each other; we just have to accept this reality and act accordingly.