Ah ha, we are 95% on the same page now. Not in agreement, but at least in the same book.
You gotta admit, nobody should presume anything when it comes to Palestine. She did not say anything about the future, or any conditions that Israel would put on such an solution. I can only go by what she said.
Previously, you have stated that there has never been a Palestine, and that Mandatory Palestine was not a true Palestinian state. If this international coalition were to come about, it would be basically a modern Mandatory Palestine, which by your logic means it is not a Palestinian state. And so until I hear otherwise from the Israeli government that there is some second part to the proposal, and maybe a timeline under a millennium, all that was called for in the ambassadors statement was the creation of a not Palestine.
And since you are so fond of saying that there is no Palestine on the map, then I shall alter my statement to say that she is calling for there never to be a Palestine on the map.
OK, we aren’t going to agree here, so it be. I will leave you with this, when the Israeli ambassador was asked if there were a two state solution, she said absolutely no. She may not have used the word never, but the words absolutely no don’t exactly fill me with hope that she envisions an independent State of Palestine some day. Again just going by what she said - absolutely no.
You may consider international rule of Gaza and the West Bank as a two state solution, but it is not. In fact it kind of sounds like the kind of solution a colonial power would propose.
I realize that there are 2300 posts in thread and going back and reading ALL of them might not be a reasonable request, but your characterization of @Babale is mistaken. He’s been pretty clear all along about his position which is NOT what you are strawmanning here. In particular, his contempt and disagreement with the government if Israeli is quite clear. Please stop assuming that because of his religion/ethnicity/country of origin he’s in lockstep with the scum running the shit-show called the Hamas-Israel war.
I have an issue with the government of Israel making Gaza into an apocalyptic wasteland full of rubble and death then walking away to leave someone else to clean up the mess.
After the US brought Japan to its knees in WWII we didn’t just walk away and leave Japan starving. We brought in food, helped with rebuilding, and provided medical care. For years. Granted, that did not always go smoothly and there was definitely friction between the occupying US and the Japanese, but the US did not abandon Japan. We didn’t make our mess someone else’s problem.
Meanwhile, the IDF bombs/assaults hospitals, rounds up people, then… just walks away. Not a goddamned thing for the people to ill or injured to leave, just abandon the sick and injured. For quite a few people that is viscerally disgusting. You break it you buy it - the Geneva conventions are clear that and invading or occupying force are obligated to care for the injured and ill. And the nation of Israel is demonstrably NOT doing that. Now the government is declaring that after they get finished with killing people and breaking things they’re just going to walk away.
The rest of the world is, understandably, a bit pissed off that we’re expected to clean up this mess.
I was skeptical that, in a single essay, he would be able to discredit the overall media narrative on Israel as “largely fiction.” But his alternate perspective is highly convincing. I want to commit several of his points to memory. Thanks for sharing that!
" Finally, if the rules-based world order has any hopes of surviving in the aftermath of Israel’s Western-sanctioned genocide in Gaza, the perpetrators of this crime against humanity cannot be allowed to walk away scot-free. The cost of reconstruction must be borne by Israel. It would be an injustice for those countries who have financed the reconstruction of Gaza following past wars to have to foot the bill once again. Furthermore, if the global community is serious about achieving sustainable peace in Palestine, and finally putting an end to decades of bloodshed, it should stop Israel from expanding its illegal settlement enterprise into Gaza, and start taking meaningful steps to ensure the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state – now."
I have no doubt that Israel will be footing the bill for much of the rebuilding effort, which is completely fine. The reason that I don’t think we should be directly involved with occupying Gaza during the reconstruction phase is political, not economic - I think troops of any other country (except perhaps American troops) would be better received than Israeli troops. Especially if done within the clear framework of a path to statehood, that could be seen as a step towards liberation rather than a hostile occupation; interim rule from abroad seems much less likely to be rejected completely by the Palestinians than interim rule by Israel.
We all know that war is hell, but this is harrowing to read. Terrible.
Do you all (in this thread), from both sides of the issue, think Israel could alleviate some of this by taking in injured children and helping them in Israeli hospitals? Would this be (a) logistically feasible and (b) something Israel would want to do?
You mean it intentionally rips them apart with remotely directed explosives then seeks redemption by recovering and repairing their limp and tattered bodies so it can parade a few as evidence of Israeli compassion.
It’s a war zone, people will be ripped apart. As I understand, in other wars, the Red Cross could go into the war zone and collect injured people to help them.
Of course the best thing for everyone is for the war to end. But since that’s not happening soon, could someone like the Red Cross / Red Crescent take in the injured so they don’t suffer the horrific stuff we read about?
Call it whatever you want. In this “one sided punitive annihilation” do you prefer if the injured kids are left to suffer in under-stocked Gaza hospitals, or do you prefer if they are taken care of in fully operational hospitals?
I know you (and I and many others) prefer that this all stop, but since that’s not happening, I think it’s still preferable to reduce suffering as much as possible.
I would prefer if Israel provided the red crescent, doctors without borders, and displaced medical staff from the Gazan hospitals with fuel, power, disinfectants, and other needed supplies.
No matter how humanitarian the goals might be, an invading country taking their opponents’ children back to their country is all kinds of bad. It’s very bad when Russia takes Ukranian “orphans” back to Russia, it would be very bad for Israel to take Gazan children back to Israel.
This would work for things like electricity, disinfectants, and pain killers, but not so much for things like fuel since that could be taken by Hamas for their own purposes.
Any of the stuff that could be provided to alleviate suffering without possibly helping Hamas should be provided. (Is any such stuff making it into Gaza?)