I don’t think it’s a good idea for Israel to just grab the kids and take them. It would be voluntary and through an intermediary like the Red Crescent. So I don’t think it compares to Russians just taking Ukrainian kids
Taking away kids is all kinds of creepy. And it’s surely better to provide help on-site, for adults as well as children.
Nothing done to kids is really voluntary. And kids do better when they have access to their parents.
Yes, it’s surely better. But when it’s not possible (for many reasons), do you prefer the kids stay on-site and suffer?
Will hamas let Israel deliver theses things to hospitals?
Why is it not possible? There is trained medical staff in Gaza, they just need basic supplies. It’s cheaper to bring in some supplies than to move kids around.
Anyway no, I’m not going to support stealing injured children, even if those children are subsequently returned (which would be kinda hard, given all the confusion.)
I understand the political issues here and largely agree with them. I am not, however, convinced that the current government of Israel intends to pay even on shekel towards rebuilding Gaza (though I’d be delighted to be wrong on that). If Israel were very clear about being willing to contribute to rebuilding efforts under the direction of someone else that might help, but that’s not the message coming through to the masses.
Nonsense, it’s a war. It may be a lopsided one, but neither side is required to make it easier for the other.
They can use PVC pipe this time which I believe is not suitable for rocket tubes.
…I have repeatedly, over and over again in this thread cited the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. So with all due respect: this question baffles me. Because it doesn’t matter what is “logistically feasible” or “what Israel wants to do.” Israel has obligations under international law. Obligations that they have repeatedly refused to follow.
Hospitals, in times of war, are protected. There are very limited circumstances when they can be attacked. There are no circumstances where they can be taken over, medical equipment destroyed, then taken out of action.
Israel claimed that there was a command and control bunker under Al Shifa Hospital. As we’ve explored quite extensively in this thread, what was found was some tunnels that we knew were built decades ago, and some weapons that, depending on circumstances, are allowed under the conventions to be stored at the hospital.
This wasn’t enough in the eyes of almost every expert in international law to make the hospital a target. However that doesn’t really matter. Even if we assumed that there was a command and control bunker under Al Shifa, Israel still had the following obligations:
This isn’t what happened in Gaza. Hospitals were surrounded, put under siege, taken over, hospital staff and patients expelled, then critical medical equipment destroyed. Its more than just Al Shifa. It was 18 other hospitals. (19 if you include what happened to Kamal Adwan a few days ago. 20 if you include Al Awda which is under siege right now)
These are war crimes. If it had just happened to Al Shifa then perhaps we could give Israel the benefit of doubt. But it wasn’t just Al Shifa. It’s become standard operating procedure. They’ve taken out the hospitals in the north and most in central Gaza. And they are moving south.
In a war zone, hospitals are to be protected. If hospitals lose their protected status, once the thing that caused protected status to be lifted has been eliminated, hospitals regain their protected status.
The most egregious failure here was what happened at Al-Nasr Children’s Hospital. From NBC:
This isn’t the role of the Red Cross / Red Crescent. They aren’t set up to do this: not on this scale.
Again, it isn’t only the injured from bombs and rubble we are talking about here.
We are talking about maternity care.
We are talking about cancer treatments.
We are talking about dialysis.
We are talking about Covid, and heart attacks, and children’s hospitals and psychiatric care.
Everything that hospitals do.
Imagine if you lived in a city of 2 million people, crowded into a space of Las Vegas. Now imagine half of all of the hospitals suddenly gone, and the roads have been bombed, and you risk getting shot by a sniper if you leave the home. How you do access even routine healthcare?
This is the reason why hospitals get protected status. Because this isn’t something that the Red Cross / Red Crescent are set up to do. Even if they set up multiple field hospitals, it would be practically impossible to provide the range of care that the hospitals were providing at the start of the war.
This is such a tired talking point.
Electricity requires fuel. If it would “work for things like electricity” then it would have to work also for fuel. The two go hand in hand.
And the thing is…the hospitals were getting the fuel they needed to function. This only became a problem when the IDF laid siege to the hospitals. Only once the hospitals were surrounded, and they cut off access to food, water, fuel, medical supplies, did the hospitals start to become non-functional.
It took significant effort and international co-operation just to open a corridor to transport only 20 premature babies from Al Shifa to a hospital in the south. The logistics of moving thousands of injured children to Israel, considering that hundreds are being injured every single day, are impossible. This isn’t even in the realms of something that could happen.
What needs to happen is that the few remaining hospitals in Gaza need to be left functional and allowed to get all of the resources they need, including food, water, fuel, medical supplies. They need to stop being targeted.
And even this won’t be enough.
Because Gaza is facing a humanitarian catastrophe. And it isn’t one that has a “quick fix.” And on top of this we have the illegal siege that has bought Gaza to the brink of famine, we have 1.9 million people out of 2.3 million people displaced from their homes, 1.3 million of them living in UN shelters where disease and infection are starting to run rampant.
In the open letter I posted up thread from the UNRWA Commissioner-General he lays it out as plainly as possible:
And the ones that were shut down could be reopened.
…this unfortunately really isn’t possible without a permanent ceasefire and a significant investment of resources.
Because this is Al Shifa at the moment.
The IDF have abandoned the hospital. And the people have moved back in. Once again, it’s become a refuge for thousands of people.
But the doctors and medical staff that used to work there have either been arrested, or they’ve moved down south and are working down there. The destroyed equipment can’t be easily fixed or replaced. It isn’t under IDF control any more. They are trying to turn it back into a hospital. Its taking care of patients right now. But it’s effectively a field clinic, not a surgical hospital any more. Most of the resources have been recommitted. And there is no guarantee that the IDF won’t return and just kick everyone out again.
If the medical staff moved South who is taking care of the patients?
…are you talking about Al Shifa?
Because the timeline for what happened there has been quite firmly established. The hospital was surrounded and laid siege by the IDF. Then they took over the hospital, then after a few days gave everyone 24 hours to leave the hospital. Most medical staff, people who were using the hospital as shelter and patients left at that point, were pushed to follow the corridor down south to the next medical facilities. But some patients, those most unable to move, remained, along with a skeleton crew of staff. The remaining patients were slowly evacuated over the next few days, and during one of these evacuations, the director of the hospital and some of the staff were arrested as they accompanied patients down south.
I’m sure that some doctors and medical staff have returned to help out where they can. But it isn’t a functional hospital. It’s a building that used to be a functional hospital, that still has some things like hospital beds and saline drips.
Are you talking about other hospitals? Because this update from three days ago talks about Nasser Medical Complex in central Khan Younis, one of the remaining functional hospitals in the “safe” south:
What happened at the hospitals up north have had a chilling effect down south: some medical staff don’t want to get “scooped up” by IDF raids like what happened in the north so they’ve left.
Do you mean who is looking after the patients in the north, where there is only a single barely functional hospital now? Well, nobody, really. You’ve got make-shift clinics and first aid stations that are treating people as well as they can.
Short answer: no one.
That’s why in at least one location a NICU was found with 5 dead, decomposing babies still hooked up to non-working machinery. Al-Nasr Children’s Hospital, look it up yourself.
Hamas ambush tactics:
Looks like they are taking cues from the Russian forces in the Ukraine:
If the two sides are “IDF” and “Hamas,” then you’re sort of right. International law requires them to make it “easier” in the sense of “not committing war crimes against criminals”; but they’re allowed to fight to the extent of their military capability.
But we’re not talking about “IDF” and “Hamas” only. There’s a third side: the civilians in the area, whether Israeli or Gazan, who aren’t part of the armed forces. And the military sides are 100% required, morally and ethically and by international law, to make it easier on the civilians.
There’s always a 3rd side of civilians in war, especially modern warfare. I wasn’t responding to that. The complaint was that it’s not a war because the IDF is overwhelmingly more capable than Hamas.
That wasn’t the complaint. Let me quote the complaint:
Modern warfare doesn’t always include civilian casualties on this scale.
I see you are being very selective in your quoting.
Really now?
WWII: 55 Million civilian deaths
Korean War: 1.5 million civilian deaths
Vietnam War: 2 million civilian deaths
Afghan-Soviet War: 2 million civilian deaths
Persian Gulf War - 100,000 civilian deaths
Operation Iraqi Freedom - 200,000+ civilian deaths
Operation Enduring Freedom - 46,000 civilian deaths
Congo War - 2.5 million civilian deaths
Bosnia War - 38,000+ civilian deaths
Russian-Ukranian War: 10,000+ civilian deaths and counting.
That’s a short list.