Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1197

No one has denied that Netanyahu uses jingoism to appeal to the worst portions of his base, and maps that don’t recognize Palestine are part of that. Genocidal is a big stretch, though. Not recognizing Palestinian sovereignty is a far cry from genocide.

Does your take on the map mean you also consider this image to be genocidal?

How about “Palestine will be free from the river to the sea”? Is that a call for genocide?

In modern Judaism, any who want to destroy the Jewish people are portrayed as Amalek, most notably the Nazis. That’s the allusion Netanyahu is making.

Elhanan Elkes1

When Jews reference Amalek in the modern day, this is the implication; that the group under discussion (Hamas, the Nazis, etc) seek to destroy the Jewish people, hence they are Amalek. Other examples include Haman (Purim story), Popes and kings who led crusades and Inquisitions, etc.

Here are a couple links to help demonstarate this:

https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/150871/jewish/Amalek-The-Perpetual-Enemy-of-the-Jewish-People.htm

So no, I don’t think that Netanyahu is calling for a genocide of the Palestinian people. I do think he’s a jingoist that belongs in jail, and that he aligns himself with people who either have called for genocide or at the least definitely would if they thought they could get away with it, like Ben Gvir, who also belongs in jail.

I hope that helps alleviate your confusion.

Yes, let me emphasize that I have zero empathy for known criminal Benyamin Netanyahu, I eagerly look forward to the day he is unceremoniously tossed from office and have my hopes up that he will land in prison.

Just like when Walken claimed that Netanyahu told Gazans to leave Gaza before he flattens the entire place in 24 hours, I am once again forced to defend one of the most odious leaders Israel has ever had against outright fabrication from an unreliable source, quoted by Walken. It’s pretty tiring. There’s plenty of real things Netanyahu does and says that he can be criticized for, but showing him to be a power hungry jingoist who will destroy the country through corruption and cozying to radicals isn’t enough - he has to be painted as genocidal.

1198

I mean, that’s not particularly difficult, even within Israel. There were reports of a demonstration in Tel Aviv today wanting a unilateral cease fire, with the idea of then negotiating for hostage release somehow.

That approach is not going to work, but it’s not as though that perspective is hard to understand.

1199

I’m beginning to think Netanyahu/IDF simply don’t care about Palestinians enough to care if 2 million die of hunger and thirst while Israel keeps up a siege around Gaza. I keep seeing repeated volleys of “It’s the fault of Hamas!” “It’s the fault of Israel!”

Right now BOTH parties are subjecting 2 million Gazan inhabitants to hunger and thirst. BOTH parties.

Maybe both sides of this war are so blood-maddened that they are both willing to see that many people at risk of death. In which case they’re all loathsome and evil. There is zero chance any Palestinians in Gaza can do anything about this as they have been abandoned and killed by both sides. I would hope there are some Israelis that can do something.

Again - I’m not convinced the IDF cares about or considers civilians in its calculations.

For example - IF it was true that Hamas was using ambulances to transport their soldiers was it really necessary to target those ambulances while they were at a hospital? That couldn’t be done when those vehicles were on the road? By targeting them when at a hospital it guaranteed more civilian casualties than if those vehicles had been blown up while on a road.

It sure looks from the outside like the IDF has a “target at all costs” approach to taking down Hamas and no amount of collateral damage is too much. Yes, Hamas is manipulating the situation to make Israel look bad, but it also seems like the IDF is doing nothing to mitigate those appearances, which do matter. Israel needs to win the PR war and not just the battlefield war.

What about the Fox commentators openly spewing bigoted remarks?

Some “liberal American Jews” may be watching Fox more. Some of the rest of us are still disgusted by it.

It is entirely natural that you would have a more visceral and immediate concern for those you know and care about than for total strangers.

1200

Was that map presented by the Palestinian leader to the United Nations?

Israel is taking practical steps to make its map a reality through its settler activity in the West Bank and its evicting of the residents of half of the Gaza Strip, combined with an Israeli government minister saying that Gaza “must be smaller at the end of the war”.

I take your point, but I would say it is still ambiguous and open to interpretation. I could certainly see it being taken in a literal rather than allegorical sense.

Cite?

1201
1202

That’s not what I wrote.

You wrote:

Here is what the Axios reporter tweeted and that I posted:

Here is your “accurate” translation, after you disputed what the Axios reporter wrote:

1203

I don’t want to derail this thread further. If you have issues with me, you have a pit thread for that.

1204

Don’t worry, I’m used to you misrepresenting my posts now.

1205

Perhaps they would deliver the terrorists or their supplies before they could be stopped.

1206

I agree that it’s a reference that makes me uncomfortable. My Rabbi I’ve gave a sermon on the topic: Modern Jews are lucky that the amalekites are lost to history, because otherwise we would have an obligation to commit genocide.

I realize it’s not usually interpreted literally these days. But there it is, a pretty ugly piece of Torah.

1207

Moderating:

That’s attacking the poster. As I’ve been pretty involved in this thread, I’m asking other mods for input.

1208

Obviously this is my secular interpretation and more religious Jewish people may interpret it differently, but my understanding is that the Amalkite story is part of that foundation myth that was created in exile to unite the Israelites and Judeans (same reason why we have a mythical mingdom that encompasses both historically attested kingdoms). They aren’t attested anywhere outside the Bible, AFAIK.

1209

…that was a tweet from a man paying tribute to his cousin’s husband, someone who was beloved in their community, who was killed along with their cousin, their children, and their grandchildren.

Abdalhadi Alijla is an author living in Sweden, and I’m going to post the entirety of their post below:

They didn’t even mention the IDF. They didn’t even mention who killed them. It was a loving tribute. Not propaganda.

These stories remind me every day what is lost. That these aren’t “human shields.” They aren’t just unfortunate collateral damage. They aren’t all “protecting tunnels, living above rocket storage.”

Innocent Palestinian lives are treated in the abstract here. To the point that a tribute to a family that didn’t even mention Israel gets called propaganda.

It was 3700 children deaths yesterday. Today its 3900. On the West Bank, according to the UNOCHA since the 7th October 132 Palestinians have killed by Israeli forces or settlers. That includes 41 children.

It was an example of transparency and accountability, something you claimed literally no nation at war in history had ever acted in this way, and doubted one ever would.

Yeah. About that. Assuming you are talking about Issam Abdallah:

Reporters without Borders claim that their journalists were deliberately targeted and present evidence to back it up. The “apology” was we are “very sorry for the death of any civilian, whether they are journalists or any other civilians.” The incident is still under “investigation.” But I have no faith if the target wasn’t a media outlet that had documented exactly what happened, that an investigation would have happened in the first place. I remember when Shireen Abu Akleh was shot and killed. I remember the investigation. How it could not “unequivocally determine the source of the gunfire which hit Ms. Abu Akleh.” That it claimed it might have been an accident in an account that doesn’t match up with the video or the eyewitnesses. I will never ever forget this.

I don’t think the IDF thinks they are doing anything wrong here, so no, I won’t be expecting an objective review of their actions.

It doesn’t matter how many times the finger-pointers condemn Hamas, it doesn’t matter how many times the finger-pointers say “taking out Hamas is right and just”, it doesn’t matter how many times the finger-pointers say "Hamas are evil, terrorists and murderers…

It doesn’t matter how many times we say all of those things, you won’t listen to us unless we accept your exact narrative frame.

I can tell you right now: the IDF aren’t going to listen to me even if I did what you asked.

As if they were going to listen to me anyway LOL.

Since you are making demands of the “finger pointers” : the finger pointers will start listening to Israel when it ends administrative detention. When it ends its apartheid regime. When it lifts the siege.

1210

I said no nation would release intelligence to justify what they were doing. Obviously many armies including the IDF investigate themselves internally and apologize when they do something wrong, like the IDF did the other day after accidentally hitting a journalist.

1211

5 posts were split to a new topic: Is Israel an apartheid regime

1212

This is not a “narrative” frame in the sense of an arbitrary perspective. It means dealing with reality rather than stating ideals.

The problem here is not that we need to identify the psychopaths. We know who they are. Civilians are not dying because Israel wants civilians to die. So just stating the absolute truth “it’s awful that innocent people are dying” contributes nothing to the debate, and shouting it louder is not a morally superior position.

What matters is finding an answer to the difficult problem where conflicting absolute ideals cannot be reconciled. A war can have a just objective, but no war can be fought without harming innocents. Unless you are prepared to engage with the difficult problem of how Israel can achieve their just objective in some better way, or to present a cogent argument that they should not pursue this objective at all because the cost outweighs the benefit, Israel will (quite reasonably) ignore you.

1214

If this were a conflict where nobody knew what was happening, I would very much agree with you that the most vital task is bringing it to the world’s attention.

But I would question whether making decisions based on a heartbreaking video is always right. Ten innocent Palestinian lives saved in 2033 is an abstraction, for example.

1215

I completely agree with you. And this means that we must remove the Hamas regime as quickly as possible.

The first necessary step to a safe and thriving future for the Palestinian people is the removal of the Hamas regime from power.

1216

…I’m not talking about “decisions.”

I’m talking about people in this thread.

This isn’t a prerequisite under international law.

And if Israel want to get the hostages back alive, then perhaps they should stop the bombing as well.

1217

never mind