Is Israel an apartheid regime

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

When it ends its apartheid regime.

There you go again, amplifying Hamas propaganda.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

I said no nation would release intelligence to justify what they were doing.

…I wasn’t asking for intelligence. I asked for transparency and accountability. YOU made it about intelligence. You can do both of those things, especially in regards to the bombing of refugee camps and ambulances, without compromising intelligence.

@Babale

There you go again, amplifying Hamas propaganda.

Amnesty International.

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians

@Ammensty International

Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law.

Laws, policies and practices which are intended to maintain a cruel system of control over Palestinians, have left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in a constant state of fear and insecurity.

Human Rights Watch.

@HRW

For the past 54 years, Israeli authorities have facilitated the transfer of Jewish Israelis to the OPT and granted them a superior status under the law as compared to Palestinians living in the same territory when it comes to civil rights, access to land, and freedom to move, build, and confer residency rights to close relatives. While Palestinians have a limited degree of self-rule in parts of the OPT, Israel retains primary control over borders, airspace, the movement of people and goods, security, and the registry of the entire population, which in turn dictates such matters as legal status and eligibility to receive identity cards.

A Threshold Crossed

This is the second time you have accused me of amplifying Hamas propaganda. I was very measured the first time. I’m not going to be measured now. This is a disgusting allegation. I ask that you not only withdraw it this time, but apologize. I’m not amplifying Hamas propaganda. Israel’s Apartheid regime is absolutely well documented and there is more than enough evidence to show it.

@Riemann

This is not a “narrative” frame in the sense of an arbitrary perspective.

Its a narrative frame.

@Riemann

Civilians are not dying because Israel wants civilians to die.

The rhetoric coming from some people in Israel, just like the rhetoric coming from some people in Gaza, tells us this isn’t entirely true. There are people on both sides who want civilians punished. There are people on both sides who want revenge.

@Riemann

“it’s awful that innocent people are dying” contributes nothing to the debate,

This isn’t a debate. And enough people, even in this thread, don’t agree with you. There are people in this very thread who think that the laws of war don’t need to apply.

@Riemann

What matters is finding an answer to the difficult problem where conflicting absolute ideals cannot be reconciled.

What matters right now is an end to the siege. What matters right now is that we stop killing children. They have been debating the difficult problem where conflicting absolute ideals cannot be reconciled for decades. It isn’t going to be resolved in the next couple of weeks. If we focus only on this all we end up with is more dead children.

@Riemann

Unless you are prepared to engage with the difficult problem of how Israel can achieve their just objective in some better way,

Why is this only a one-way problem? What about the Palestinian people? What about their objectives? When Palestinians protest peacefully, they get shot. When Palestinians bury their dead, they get beaten. It didn’t matter what they did. They got ignored. So you think me changing my narrative frame would make any difference?

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

This is the second time you have accused me of amplifying Hamas propaganda. I was very measured the first time. I’m not going to be measured now. This is a disgusting allegation. I ask that you not only withdraw it this time, but apologize. I’m not amplifying Hamas propaganda.

@Banquet_Bear

This is the second time you have accused me of amplifying Hamas propaganda. I was very measured the first time. I’m not going to be measured now. This is a disgusting allegation. I ask that you not only withdraw it this time, but apologize. I’m not amplifying Hamas propaganda.

You’re not gonna call my country an apartheid regime and get an apology from me. Don’t make me laugh.

Once again, just like I said about Netanyahu. You could make plenty of valid criticisms about Israel and their treatment of Palestinians. Instead you amplify Hamas by calling Israel an apartheid regime. Yeah, I am going to keep calling you out for doing so, and no, I am not going to apologize.

@Banquet_Bear

What matters right now is an end to the siege. What matters right now is that we stop killing children

That was the logic in 2014 that prevented a ground invasion. 1,400 dead Israeli civilians later, a ground invasion is necessary. This will not end until Hamas is finished. A ceasefire just kicks the can down the road. You think Hamas will use a ceasefire to distribute aid to Palestinians under their control, or to foritify and dig in and make their eventual removal even more difficult (and even more costly in terms of Palestinian civilian lives)?

@Riemann

I completely agree with you. And this means that we must remove the Hamas regime as quickly as possible.

Exactly.

[Walken_After_Midnight]

@Babale

@Banquet_Bear

When it ends its apartheid regime.

There you go again, amplifying Hamas propaganda.

Why, in your opinion, would this former attorney general of Israel and this former head of Mossad be parroting Hamas propaganda?

Some Israel scholars and former Israeli officials have also started using this designation. In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness … I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” Earlier this year, Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.”

The argument that Israel practices apartheid, explained

[Banquet_Bear]

@Babale

Instead you amplify Hamas by calling Israel an apartheid regime.

…I’m not amplifying Hamas. I’m amplifying the meticulous investigations conducted by different human rights agencies that looked at the evidence. And the evidence is overwhelming. This has nothing to do with Hamas and I absolutely reject your characterization.

@Babale

That was the logic in 2014 that prevented a ground invasion. 1,400 dead Israeli civilians later, a ground invasion is necessary.

I’m sorry, did Israel do nothing to the Palestinians in either Gaza or the West Bank between 2014 and October 7th? It went from “no ground invasion” to suddenly 1400 dead Israeli civilians later? Because if you think thats the case, then I would suggest to you that you need to read both the Amnesty International Report and the HRW report as well.

And again, I must absolutely stress this, the death of those 1400 dead Israeli civilians was a disgusting, despicable crime against humanity. I’m not downplaying it or excusing it at all. I was physically ill when I read the stories. Inexcusable evil.

But I’m not going to stop saying we should “stop killing children now” because of something that apparently didn’t happen in 2014.

@carnivorousplant

And we believe hamas?

Do we believe the IDF?

I don’t have much faith in either, to be honest. I take statements from both sides at face value, but with a great big huge grain of salt.

[Smapti]

Israel did not create Gaza and the West Bank, nor have they forced Arab Israelis to move there, and the residents thereof are not seeking Israeli citizenship. It is not illegal for Jews and Arabs to intermarry and citizens of Israel are not assigned different tiers of citizenship based on race.

This is a bad metaphor.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Smapti

This is a bad metaphor.

…it isn’t a metaphor.

[Smapti]

It’s not much of anything aside from hyperbole.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

The proposition that Israel isn’t an apartheid regime is a reasonable proposition. The proposition that everyone who thinks it’s an apartheid regime is parroting Hamas is not reasonable. It’s namecalling and an attempt to shut down the discussion.

There are plenty of entities who have asserted that Israel is an apartheid regime. Hamas is only the most repugnant of those entities. Say, instead, that @Banquet_Bear is amplifying Jimmy Carter propaganda, or Amnesty International propaganda, or Omer Bartov propaganda–but don’t use a rhetorical trick to discredit the assertion and to smear those who make it.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Smapti

It’s not much of anything aside from hyperbole.

…I’ll stand by the conclusions of both Amnesty International and HRW. There is nothing hyperbolic in either of their investigations at all.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Smapti

It’s not much of anything aside from hyperbole.

That is not a consensus opinion.

Apartheid+ENG.pdf

[Smapti]

Then the consensus opinion is wrong.

[puzzlegal]

My apologies. I just don’t think this can be discussed in MPSIMS. If folks want to pursue this topic, i request that someone start a pit thread. I’m going to leave this closed. Feel free to link to it if you do start a thread in the pit.