Do Muslims generally believe that the Qur’an is God’s complete, perfect, and final Message to man (as revealed throught the Prophet Mohammed)…that is, no new major religeons or prophets or prophecies…only Judgement Day?
That sounds more or less correct, but I’ll defer to others that will inevitably respond.
However I opened a thread a while back on the nature of the Koran which eventually provides some interesting information.
Al Qur’an is seen as the infallible and inimitable Word of God, the perfect expression of God’s eternal decree, universal and unchangable.
Al Qur’an is in this light seen as the renewal of that eternal Message that was reveiled to all the previous prophets of God who were chosen to bring Gods’ Message to humanity.
The reason why God needed an other prophet who came in the person of Muhammed, was because the eternal message was once again corrupted and changed and influenced by humanity. Al Qur’an served thus to restore it in its original form.
In addition is said that this time God didn’t choose one particular group or people to be informed about His message. Al Qur’an is meant to serve and reach all humanity, no matter where and no matter of which race or society.
This is a foundation of the Muslim belief that Muhammed is the final prophet of God = that no other prophet will come to bring the message. There is also a strong tradition to see reference to that in the text of Al Qur’an itself.
Salaam. A
Aldebaran, I ask this not to be contentious but to be informed:
First, as we all know, the Qu’ran was not, at first, written, but collected after Mohammed (died/was taken to Heaven), from his suras which Allah commanded him to recite.
From where, then, comes your assurance that its text was not corrupted as the Tanakh and Christian New Testament were (according to Islam) corrupted? What preserved the accuracy of the Qu’ran’s contents through the oral tradition period?
Second, is there any standard consensus in Islam as to what extent and for how long the Jewish and Christian scriptures remained uncorrupted? Can you, for example, trust, say, the Book of Ruth, or Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians to be God’s word unadulterated? If not them, some given subsection, e.g., one of Jesus’s parables? And would the finding of older manuscripts, such as the Qumran scrolls, or a hypothetical find similar to them but dateable back to the fall of Jerusalem, serve to make any portion of them as valid Scripture in Islamic eyes?
[QUOTE=Polycarp
First, as we all know, the Qu’ran was not, at first, written, but collected after Mohammed (died/was taken to Heaven), from his suras which Allah commanded him to recite.[/QUOTE]
I wrote a summary on the history of Al Qur’an as text on the thread Grey gave a link to.
You find my answer on this equestion also on that same thread.
Take notice that I speak there as historian. Historians never claim to have what you call ‘assurance’ but nevertheless it is their goal to come to conclusions about the possibility how historical facts developped and/or took place.
Overhere I only answer the question of the OP regarding the common Muslim beliefs.
There are several factors contributing to the assertion that the Jewish scriptures became corrupted/altered. One of them is the story that they were lost/burned at some point in history (exile to Babylon) and then at the return in the homeland restored by Ezra. Others refer to the distortion of the text and/or its meaning by the rabbis, others to the stories about Abraham and other prophets. This is a still ongoing discussion.
The corruption attributed to Christianity is much clearer and can be easily explained since it is in direct relationship with the Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God. (One can argue at which point this idea entered the Christian teachings). Thus Christianity is seen as following a corrupted/wrong teaching.
When speaking of Paul: I tend to consider him - or better said: what is attributed to him - as one of the greatests distortions that entered the original Judeo-Christian teachings.
The teachings of Jesus however are not seen as corrupt. Jesus was a prophet of God.
As for the Qumran scrolls: I’m not scholared in the issue. It is an interesting issue though. But from what I have read on it (not much), it seems to me that they are considered as scriptures written by/related to pre-christian groups/sects.
Salaam. A
So, just to be clear.
Are you saying that Abraham, Moses and Jesus went around proclaiming islam as it is practised today (the five pillars etc) but that all of this part of their teachings has been lost?
All we have left on record is the (incomplete) Abraham, Moses and Jesus of the bible, who never said or did anything remotely islamic?
Also,
Even if you are correct that the bible has taken a few hits to it’s authenticity over the years (through being an oral tradition etc), this still does not mean islam is right. All it means is that the bible is wrong. Don’t you still have to make an intellectual jump to get from:
“The bible is wrong”
to
“islam is right”?
To this uninformed reader, there doesn’t appear to be much in the bible that would justify islam. None of the prophets ever mentioned it or any of it’s ordinances. None of them ever mentioned the “heavenly book” from which the quran is copied. None of them ever mentioned quranic concepts like jihad or saying prayers 5 times a day or polygamy etc etc.
Shouldn’t there be at least some record of this islamic side to their personalities?
I can’t answer for Aldebaran but, with respect, Jojo, you’re picking aspects of Islam which are uniquely Islamic, and they are only uniquely Islamic precisely they aren’t mentioned in the Jewish or Christian scriptures. Islam has an enormous amount in common with Judaism and/or Christianity which is found in the Bible, starting with the fairly fundamental notion that there is only one God, that he is all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful, and that he is the creator and sustainer of all things, and going right down to the fine detail of the dietary laws, which are pretty similar as between Jews and Muslims - though not, of course, Christians. So Abraham and Moses and Jesus and other biblical figures do have an what you call an “islamic side”. We just don’t normally think of it as Islamic.
(For the record, it’s fairly clear in the OT that the Jews did practice polygamy. At some point they stopped, but there is no scriptural injunction against it and (subject to correction by somebody who knows more about this than I do) I believe that the prohibition on polygamy comes from a rabbinical edict, and not from a biblical injunction.)
UDS said:
I know, that’s my whole point. Is it the muslim contention that Abraham, Moses and Jesus went around professing these uniquely islamic things in addition to the things they say in the bible but that records of this have been lost?
Agreed.
Well, not quite. Allah is described as all-merciful, all-compassionate and all-forgiving, he is never described as all-loving, not once. In fact, I’m not sure that the word “love” ever actually gets mentioned in the quran. I’m not being critical here, just mentioning it.
Yes, that’s all good but it doesn’t really answer my question. As I understand the muslim position, Abraham, Moses and Jesus were all quoting from the same “heavenly book” of which the quran is a perfect copy. Does this therefore mean that if one could go back in time and meet, say, Abraham himself one would be struck by how similar he is to today’s muslims? Would he be quoting the quran left, right and centre and telling people to avoid alcohol and stuff?
If so, how come one of Jesus’s most famous miracles was turning water into wine? Or did this not happen?
Jojo, I can’t speak for Aldebaran, but so far he is answering as a historian knowlegable about Muslim beliefs. He is not, so far, engaging in a debate as to what he, personally believes, religion-wise.
I refer to this statement: “Take notice that I speak there as historian. Historians never claim to have what you call ‘assurance’ but nevertheless it is their goal to come to conclusions about the possibility how historical facts developped and/or took place.
Overhere I only answer the question of the OP regarding the common Muslim beliefs.”
So it is kind of pointless to take issue with what he is saying - except if you are asserting that, in fact, Muslims don’t believe what he claims they believe.
In other words, the debate as to whether Islam or Christianity (or, I guess, Judaism or Zorastrianism or athiesm) is “right” is a different debate, irrelevant to the OP.
To me, the issue is not whether Muslims happen to be right in their beliefs, but what they do, in fact, believe. And whether all Muslims believe the same things as far as these basic issues go.
Just for the record:
There are more, but there are some examples.
The Qur’an is seen as the final message of Allah to mankind. It is said in the Qur’an, that at Gadhir-e-Kuhm, during the Prophet’s last pilgrimage (an Arabian Oasis between Mecca and Madina), that Allah revealed:
That is to say, previous revelations were not corrupted per say, but merely incomplete, and that the guidance of the Qur’an, (and the Imams thereafter) was indeed His final message to mankind. However, that is not to say Muslims have carte blanche to treat those of other religions as inferior, or in some way different.
The “People of the Book” are those of the Jewish and Christian faiths - essentially the other major monothestic religions, and they are to be treated as equals, for they too have the Divine guidance. The Bible, the Torah, etc are seen as Holy Books of Islam as well. In fact, as a child, I recall being taught that whilst the Qur’an was the main Book, the teachings of the other four books were equally valid in Islam also. Except I can’t remember the other two of the four books (I can recall Torah and Bible, but that’s it).
However, depending then on which sect of Islam you follow, there are complications. Sunnis believe that after the Book, there is nothing. Shias on the other hand, believe that after the Book, there were hereditary Imams (from the line of Hazrat 'Ali) to guide and interpret the Book for their age.
What’s the deal with the so-called “satanic verses” (not the Rushdie book)?
Malthus:
I’m not taking issue with him. This thread is about what muslims believe, as you say, and I just asked a question about what muslims believe in relation to Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Angua has now answered this question, thank you Angua.
Captain Amazing - noted.
Just one more question:
Angua said:
According to the bible, though, Jesus didn’t have any “revelations” as such. And the main revelation Moses had - the Ten Commandments - doesn’t appear in the quran. Why don’t the Ten Commandments appear in the quran? Shouldn’t they be there since they were revealed to Moses by God and presumably God, in revealing the Commandments, was merely quoting from the heavenly book?
When the holy book was finally revealed to us in full, the Ten Commandments weren’t in it. So where did Moses get them from then? Did he just pull them out of his ass?
They are in the Qur’an. Just not in the guise of the Ten Commandments, but they are in there. I don’t have a cite for you at the moment, as my copy of the Qur’an’s at home.
Actually yes, I was just about to post again telling you not to bother answering that question as I’ve remembered the answer but you got in first.
The answer is that one can pick various passages from the quran and say that they equate to nine of the ten commandments. The only commandment that isn’t in there is the tenth one - keep the sabbath holy. The muslim argument is that the need to keep the sabbath holy was a message purely for the jews and the arrival of islam meant that it was no longer necessary.
However shouldn’t this commandment still have been in the book since it was given to Moses from the book. Maybe with a later note to say that it was no longer necessary.
Otherwise where did Moses get this commandment from (if it’s not in the book)?
My mistake, then.