Do Animals Rape?

From an evolution standpoint it would seem logical to rape, because your genes would be passed on, most of the time the female is very selective about her mate.

The fact that sex seems to be consentual in the animal kingdom therefore debunks the “selfish gene” arguement, as a selfish gene would rather rape, and survive, than allow the more dominant male to pass on his genes instead.

When we look in the animal kingdom however the female’s final choice is a big thing, and is respected by the lesser males. Check out this article by Scientific American on how a female chooses her mate: http://www.sciam.com/1998/0498issue/0498dugatkin.html

Say you have two males, the female will pick the better one (genetically), but why do the genes of the lesser male permit this if they are supposed to be “selfish”. Surley “Selfishness” would be served best by taking the opportunity to rape, and thus survive.

Your thoughts?

I recall reading about the population density study down with rats. When overcrowded some of the rats became sexaully deviant and did rape other rats. So yes animals rape.

Maybe they Don’t rape normally because just because you impregant doesn’t mean the baby

A. will be healthy (trauma of some sort(?maybe)
B. will be taken care of (might be ignored or killed by the mother)

Think about it though, if the genes of the lesser male were to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the greater male by not raping, we can conclude that they are not selfish in and of themsleves, but permit the greatest of their type to be passed on (dominant male). There is a problem with this however, because why do males bother competing in the first place if they are not selfish, and if they are really not selfish, what are they?

Does “not raping”=“not selfish”?

NO and No.

No not raping does not mean not selfish and no humans aren;t the only animals that rape.

Other animals that commit rape that I can name off the top of my head are: chimpanzees, sea lions, flying foxes and kangaroos. Cites will be provided if necessary and I’m sure there are many more species. So that anwers the OP.

Re “Does “not raping”=“not selfish”?”
Rape is not a risk free process for a number of reasons, not least of which in most species the females are not helpless. Mares quite frequently kick the shit out of stallions even after they have willingly accepted them, resulting in fatal injuries. This is the reason stud farms use teasers: vasectomised males taht are used to stiimulate the mare to the point of acepting a mount and then pulled off. Any stallion that tries to rape a compleetly unwilling mare is garaunteed to be killed with zero chance of achieving penetration. The same goes for most other species.

Then of course we have the alpha males. In wolf packs omega males are frequently injured and not uncommonly kille dby alpha for mating with bitches. Gorilla willl beat the snot out of sub males and occasionally females caught cheating. In one study of chimps rape was the highest cause of death amongst adults with both the rapist and the rapee frequently getting killed, the rapist commonly by otehr chimps. With lions any male entering the territory of a male with a pride is in for a fight. Raping a screaming female while the alpha male beats the snot out of you is not a good survival strategy.

Even without the risk of physical damage rape is going to be impossible in most species. For copulation to take place the female has to be immobile. Imagine a dog trying to copulate with a bitch who is running away at full speed. Not likely. All such attempts would do is to waste energy and increase the risk of injury, expose you to predators etc. Not a good survival strategy.

So rape will only be non-selfish, or at least of survival advanatge if you can achieve copulation more through rpe than other means. If you commit one rape and get fatally wounded on the second attempt, yet might have had sex seven times through consensual means, you’ve lost. If you’re a subordinate male with even a one in a thousand chance of becoming alpha, and alpha males father 200 young during their time at the top, then you need to be able to get away with rape 50 times to make it worth your while genetically.
these animals aren’t sacrificing themselves by not mating, they’re preserving themselves by not raping. Rape is not cost free, it’s highly risky and as such the returns need to be huge or the risk of not obtaining consesual sex equally huge to amke it worthwhile from a survival perspective.
So why do those few species rape? Well chimps, flying foxes and kangaroos ahve the capacity to immobilise a female without killing her to begin with. Most animals lack anything like hands and would have to use sharp teeth and claws to immobilise a victim. That’s going to kill the victim which invalidates the whole practice.

Sea lions get away with it because the amle is massive compared to the female. They immobilise the females by lying on them although injuries are still common enough. rapes occur while females are emerging from the sea, before they have been claimed by, and under protection of, the dominant males further up the beach.

Kangaroos have a harem structure with fairly frequent male turnover so males that don’t make it to alpha while i their prime aren’t likely to become alphas. As such middle-aged males have an advantage in rape becuase they’ll never reproduce otehrwise. Added to this because of their fighting styles the smaller females can’t injure the males.

Flying foxes form lifelong monogamous pairs, and rapes are by bachelor males and undertaken when the partner isn’t available. Normally a male will defend his mate to the death. Probably older bachelors are less attractive and wouldn’t get to mate at all without rape, they can pin a victim quite successfully and they risk is small.

Chimps are just too damn human-like to need explanations of why it works for them.

I have witnessed what (to me as a human observer) appeared to be rape in Mallard Ducks - and I have read about others seeing the same thing in the same species, so I know it wasn’t just one isolated event.

We were in York, UK walking in the grounds of the University when we saw a group of male Mallards chasing a female who seemed to be making an active effort to get away. If and when one of them caught her, he would mount and mate with her, while pecking her on the back of the head. It was quite distressing to watch, but the strange thing was that when I intervened and attempted to chase the males away, the female just stood there and quacked. When I gave up shoo-ing the males, they simply resumed chasing and “raping” her. In the account that I read about this taking place, the observer saw the “rape” taking place on water, and the females head was being pushed under water during mating. The observer told that they returned the same way later that day and saw the corpse of a female Mallard floating in the river at the spot where the assault had been seen.

Rape? Aggressive mating to ensure that only the fastest males get to mate and reproduce? In the last episode, certainly, it seemed to backfire on the ducks - no futhering of the species took place there!!

I doubt what you saw was rape.

Sex in poultry is pretty rough becuase they haven’t got hands to hold on with, so they use the beak to grip the neck/head for support. The pecking was probably an attempt to get a hold. The same thing occurs in chickens, though the rooster just grabs the comb. The running away is part of the courtship, with the male dancing around until the female ‘assumes the position’.

I know ducks commonly push the female’s head under wtaer during copulation, but considering that copulation in ducks only lasts a few seconds and these are aquatic birds I doubt that the dead duck was more than a coincidence.

Ducks rape, gang rape actually. There was a group of ducks on the pond at the apartment complex my parents used to manage that drowned several females by gang-raping them - and then started doing the same to the other males. Pretty soon they were the only ones on the pond, and the few other ducks moved away from the pond, living between a couple of buildings about 100 feet away.

Is “rape” the correct term? Isn’t there a consent issue? Are animals capable of consent?

I saw the thread title and thought this was straightforward - animals can’t rape because there is no consent issue. Reading your posts has got me thinking though that maybe it isn’t so clear-cut.

I did see something like this in a market place in the old quarter of Jakarta (Batavia) a few years ago (but it could have happened anywhere, I’m sure). The dog had mounted the object of his desires. The bitch was reduced in speed to the extent that she seemed to be indulging in extremely urgent window-shopping. The guy-dog looked rather startled, being dragged around. A six-legged creature with two embarrassed faces wandering around a market full of totally unconcerned Indonesians. Maybe it happens every day there.

Dolphins will engage in violent, non-consensual mating. Sounds like the definition of rape, but I’d be hesitant to label it as such since it seems likely (though it is not conclusive) that the Dolphin’s goal is still procreation, while it is my understand that the human criminal act of rape is one of violence and control.

Still, to assume that animals don’t engage in sex that is violent and non-consensual, is incorrect. They do, and it seems to fit in with the simplified ‘selfish gene’ model that the OP is questioning.

Hiyruu, though I sense your goals are just a bit anti-scientific in this thread, I want to commend you for questioning mainstream science in a much more thoughtful and provocative manner than some of your other topics. This is an excellent question, and I’d be happy to discuss it further.

I have seen mallard ducks ganging on an individual. I don’t know if they are just trying to kill it or what. it is very violent and the victum never leaves when there is a break in the action. I never did understand it. I have seen it many times. does anyone have an explanation?

A few references on rape/forced copulation in ducks:

http://www.lter.umn.edu/abstr/a1420B.html
http://www.lter.umn.edu/abstr/a1418.html
http://www.lter.umn.edu/abstr/a1019.html

Also:

Bailey, RO; Seymour, NR; Stewart, GR. 1978. Rape behavior in Blue-winged Teal. Auk 95: 188-190.

Wishart, RA; Knapton, RW. 1978. Male Pintails defending females from rape. Auk 95: 186-187.

Rape is a particularly well known behavior among the dabbling ducks (genus Anas).

I’ll second this. I’ve seen such a mallard “gang Bang”, and it certainly looked like rape (and not just riough sex because ducks got no hands!). The female duck looked extremely unwilling, and the males were definitely ganging up on her. It’s always dangerous to anthropomorphize, but this just looked WRONG.

Ok, thanks for the replies, and the cites. Have you considered that the lesser male might take the opportunity to rape while the female is asleep?

When a female has made her “final choice”, is it always respected by the genetically lesser males?

Finally consider the courting ritual that the males go through, why would the selfish genes of the lesser male put up with this ritual if it could resort to rape instead?
There still seems to be plenty of oportunities for rape to occur, and I think saying that the females of all species can defend themselves from a male is a bit of a supposition.

I guess it is possible, do you have a cite to support this premise? If yes, please elaborate on what this demonstrates, as I am unclear.

No, of course not. Males will often fight or otherwise hinder each other in an attempt to supplant their opponent as the mating partner. As a matter of fact, some males continue to compete even after the act, as shown by the competitive nature of sperm in chimps. How is that for the male struggle to reproduce, when your ejaculate is fighting it out on your behalf?

Because rape is just one tactic, to be used under conditions where it is the most viable mating strategy. Under other circumstances you may be able to acquire more mates with a greater degree of fitness through mating displays, food collection, or other strategies. I’m not aware of any species where forced copulation is the only tactic, which would lead me to believe it evidences itself under a certain set of conditions.

For a while, my parents had two male dogs, a scottie and a beagle. The beagle was fixed and displayed what I would call jealousy of the scottie’s, um, package, which was considerable. The beagle would often attack the scottie’s genitals.

One day, the beagle was harassing the scottie when suddenly the scottie got an enormous erection, and knocked over the beagle. As the beagle was trying to get up, the scottie mounted it and started copulating. The beagle struggled to get away for a moment, but the little scottie managed to keep it immobilized for some time.

You should have seen the expression on that beagle’s face when it discovered it was a prison bitch.

Anyway, I just wanted to recount that entertaining little story, because it’s prurient.

How about fish “rape”? Being an avid pond and river fisherman, I can tell you that there are two types of male bluegill, “dominant” males of large size and bright coloring, and “transvestite” males, who closely resemble females in size and coloring. While the dominant males are busy courting the female, the transvestite male will move close to the nest, impersonating an interested female. When the female lays her eggs, the transvestite male will attempt to dart into the nest and blow its load over the eggs before the dominant male. The dominant male then guards the nest, whether or not he successfully fertilized them himself.

I don’t know. Does that count? Even if it doesn’t, it’s still another wonderful insight into the steamy, kinky world of animal sex.

You try buggering a female hedgehog (porcupine) without her consent… :wink:

Hiyruu, this was the subject of my very first post to this board. I’m including a link to it here because some posters had some interesting things to say, and some stories to tell:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=16057

No, because quite frankly it’s ludicrous. Try walking up to a sleeping cat one day and grabbing it genitals. Count your fingers before and after the act and see if you can understand why this wouldn’t work. Copulation isn’t a case of jump on top and start humping even with a stimulated female. With unstimulated females you’ve got buckly’s.

Added to this the positions just aren’t viable. The female needs to present to make opulation possible in most species, the arrangement of the organs and curvature of the spine coupled with a lack of hands means that a male needs a standing female, and even in those species that stand to sleep this means the female has a running start. These also tend to be the species that don’t sleep too soundly. One foot on a females back and she’s gone.

Sorry Hiyruu but the mental image of a bull trying to mate with a cow lying on the ground is just too bizarre. You obviously haven’t spent much time with aniamls. Try again.

No, as has been mentioned they continue try to win her over. Hell I’ve been known not to respect a female’s choice myself and tried to win her over. But animals don’t resort to rape very often because the reward isn’t worth the risk.

I covered this above. It’s because persistance will pay off with greater rewards than rape. Very few males in any species win females in courtship the fisrt year. If you have to wait 5 years after puberty to have sex, but therafter breed every year for 10 years then it’s a far safer option than attempting an impossible rape and getting killed after failing the first year.

Animals resort to rape, or any other action, when the chances of reproduction through that action are higher than the chances of failing to reproduce due to that action. Rape is inherently risky with slim chances of success and hence is an absolute last resort.

List them.

Then it’s just as well no one ever said anything like that isn’t it?

I stand corrected.

Hemlock,
What you saw wasn’t a bitch trying to avoid copulation, it was two dogs locked after copulation has finished. It always happens because the penis has a swelling on the base that can’t be withdrawn for quite a while after copulation is finished. The bitch gets bored after a while and wanders off leading to the situations you saw. It’s just a dog thing and it happens everywhere. There’s no way a dog could mount a running bitch.

Sofa King,
Don’t confuse dominance mounting with rape. Dogs do this sort of thing all the time to establish dominace. The submissive animals could have gotten away quite easily obviously since there wan’t even any penetration. Submissive dogs choose not to move to demonstarte submissiveness, much like rolling on their bellies.

And yes, animals are acpable of consent. Consenting females adopt a specific stance designed to signal willingness. Raped females delibarately tyr to prevent penetration. If animals aren’t capable of showing consent on these grounds then mute humans are incapable of showing consent. Consent doesn’t need to be spoken and refusal can definitely be communicated physically.

Wht about females raping males? Does this happen?