Do blacks really have 70% illigitimate births?

Great Debates
81

Don’t you see what a recent phenomenon this is? It is certainly not self-evident to me that “retirement” is the natural goal for grandparents. For one thing, it is only very recently that people have lived for long enough past their child-bearing years to even contemplate such a thing. For another thing, a lot of people dread the thought of “retirement,” often because they fear being shuttled away in a retirement castle, or being made irrelevant in other ways. Many grandparents are thrilled to participate in bringing up their grandkids, even if they do it at the same time as taking care of their own kids.

Please don’t try to force them into your own model of how families should go. Not everyone’s retirement goals are the same as yours, and that’s not a problem.

On why there are so many more black kids born to single parents than white kids, a few other suggestions:

For some reason on which I do not care to speculate, many many Jamaican kids are born to single mothers. Anecdote: I know a Jamaican woman, who hooked up with an African fellow, and who quickly had a baby. The relationship didn’t last even until the birth of the baby. It was clear to me that the woman wanted a baby, and the thought of having a reliable father for her baby had not entered her plans. (To the extent that he had to fight quite hard for access to the sprog.) I am told that this is fairly common in Jamaica: while I (a white middle class Canadian woman) think of starting a family, I think of husband first, then baby. It seems this has been disrupted in Jamaica and also, it seems, among black women in America.

It has also been disrupted among many upper-class white women (e.g. Angelia Jolie), but they are never criticized for it because they have the resources to easily provide. I am not comfortable with making your reproductive freedom dependent on your existing resources. How many of our parents would have been able to pass a means test before giving birth to us? What if your existence was dependent on it?

Solution: look at why the traditional “husband, then baby” strategy is not resonating in the minds of black women. It might have something to do with men (black AND white, and I say this as the daughter of a white one and the wife of a black one). As an unapologetic radical feminist, I believe the time has come for us to devote as much attention to men in society as women.

Another possibility (and again, I am not a black woman so I am not speaking for them, just speculating): the ‘hopelessness’ experienced by black men is commonly discussed. Growing up in the inner city they don’t have many options, they don’t see people who look like them represented in positions of authority, they do not have mentors, they do not have opportunities, not like white men do. This is often cited as a context under which gang culture, drugs and firearms, proliferate, because they are trying to earn “respect” in the only way available to them. (Here I am by no means trying to justify or excuse their actions, just relating some of the theories they’ve been discussing in response to recent gang violence in Toronto.) Perhaps black women experience the same sort of thing, but instead of gaining respect by shooting people who disrespect them, they gain respect by starting families of their own.

At the end of the day, the only way to “solve” this problem and return society to our expectations of the heterosexual nuclear family is to physically prevent people from having children until their family matches our expectations.

I find this to be absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable.

What we must do is find the root of the problem (that too many kids are raised in environments which cannot provide for their emotional and material needs - and that this happens independently of how many caregivers they have, what their relationship to the kid is, and what relationship they have with each other) and address that.

82

Wow, talk about mental gymnastics! So now, grandparents raising their grandchildren out of necessity isn’t a problem, it’s the solution to the “problem” of retirement.

:rolleyes:

83

No, it’s not. It’s some families’ solution.

Why should we demonize them instead of supporting them?

84

Actually, it is - a better one, in fact, than a single-parent model.

If by “effective” you mean “the consensus choice”, you are right. If by “effective” you mean “more likely to lead to positive outcomes for women and children”, you are wrong.

Single parent households fail at child-rearing more often than two-parent households. You can use pretty much any definition of “failing” you like. Simply pretending that this is nothing but a change in definitions is, in my opinion, a misuse of language and a failure of our society. Single motherhood (which describes roughly 80% of all single parent households) is not ‘just as good’ as a two parent family.

And I would be interested in reading some kind of cite that shows that most older adults look forward eagerly to their daughters getting pregnant out of wedlock so they can spend their golden years raising another set of children.

Regards,
Shodan

85

I did not say that retirement was a goal. I referred to retirement goals which is different for each and every one of us. It can even include continuing to work. Retirement for most everyone is inevitable when you can no longer look after yourself the same way when you did when you were productive. Older people are well aware that it is important during their productive years to provide for their old age. Many people after their kids leave home prioritize retirement funding and planning. Having to look after another generation of children does not factor in the desires of 99.999% of upper middle aged people.

Agreed, and that is because they failed or were unable to provide for themselves earlier or because they just fear losing control of their lives.

There is a gigantic difference between participating in the rearing of their grandchildren, and being the guardian of their grand children. Surely you won’t dispute that.

Nobody is forcing or promoting forcing grandparents to give up their grandchildren. Nobody is demonizing guardian grandparents either. On the contrary, I think they are heros.

86

What the hell are you talking about? Grandparents have been major care givers since the beginning of time and this pattern is prevalent in most societies- even our own recent past. Far from being an awful burden, some people welcome it. My own mother keeps asking me “When are you going to have a kid? You can come back to Sacramento and Grandma and I will help you raise it.” While this isn’t something that should be thrust on someone unwillingly, and while the mother/father should be at least equally involved- raising a grandchild can be as rewarding as parenthood is the first time around and is a much better arrangement IMHO than daycare and other modern forms of child raising. Not everyone is aiming to spend their retirement playing golf, not everyone has a spouse to ‘reconnect with’ and not every mother who needs some extra support is in an ‘awful plight’ and a ‘failing life’.

There are a million billion more aspects of black culture than ‘being in jeopardy’. It’s a vibrant, diverse, living culture with long roots and a bright future. I bet your black friends feel a lot bigger kinship than you can tell at first glance.

Well, a female centered household extended family household goes back a lot longer than that. Many modern forms of the black American family have their roots in Africa. Added to this is that during slavery there was a concentrated effort to break up families and destroy the family structure- or any social support structure that could lead to organization and rebellion. After slavery, this was morphed in to families where the man worked long hours in the fields or often in distant states, and the female spent much of her time in someone else’s home- sometimes with ‘favors’ expected and the results of those favors left to the woman to raise.

Sexuality doesn’t preclude having high moral standards. Like any other group, some black subcultures were more sexually open than others. There were church girls and loose girls and everything in between- just like white America. And the older generation has always been shocked at the rampant sexuality of the younger generations. The women of the gay 90’s shook their head in shame at the going’s on of their flapper daughters in the 1920’s. This isn’t a unique time in history.

Heh. Ever try having sex on LSD?

Because, as I’ve said over and over again, motherhood isn’t seen as a bad thing. White America’s ‘pre-requisites’ for motherhood have changed dramatically. When my mom had me in 1980, nobody raised an eyebrow. She was 19, preparing for a shotgun wedding, nowhere near fully educated, had no career or major career plans outside of ‘mother’ and we all lived in a little apartment on the sketchy side of town. Nobody thought what she was doing was at all unusual or suboptimal.

It was the same story twenty years before that when my Grandmother did the same thing. At the time, she was living the absolute ideal life for a young woman. Her family was full of congratulations and her peers were jealous.

Now, at 25, people still say I am too young to get married and too poor to have kids. The idea of a small ‘starter home’ to start your family in has gone out the window as people are expected to be on their third or forth home in to one that has ‘room to grow in to.’ The Brady bunch raised six kids in a three-bedroom house. But now it’s considered criminal not to have a bedroom and bathroom each for each family member at the last.

Which sitcoms are not about sex? Hell, we even put it in the names of our TV programs. And what exactly do the themes in KISS songs have to do with my life?

'Cos that worked so great the first time around. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

87

The illegitimate birth rate has climbed steadily for all populations. I don’t think there is an argument there. There is plenty on the net trying to blame it on welfare. One interesting site blames it on the decline of the shotgun wedding which certainly account for the stat on my birth to appear legitimate. That may be true, and supports my argument that we need to downplay overt sexuality in our society and support education on the value of commitment in matters sexual.

Insanity is not to look back on a negative trend and see where we have gone wrong, rather than just spout off the same modern solutions like education and availability of mechanical and chemical reproductive controls that a significant portion of the population can’t or won’t use.

88

Perhaps you could cite the societies in which the norm is for young men to impregnate women and then abandon them and their children for their parents to support.

Regards,
Shodan

89

Some additional stats to mill about, these from this month’s issue of Pediatrics, “Annual Summary of Vital Statistics”.

Highest birthrate 15-17? Hispanic 49.7/1000. Non-Hispanic Black is much less, 36.8, and White down there at 12.0. Hispanic also leads in the 18-19 and 20-24 groups too but by smaller amounts. Of course that group also leads handily overall as well.

Birthrate for teens all groups, including Blacks and Hispanics has been decreasing since a peak in 1991. 61 to 41 overall, 118 to 63 for Blacks and 105 to 83 for Hispanics.

Blacks do lead the list with mothers being unmarried at 69.2% in 2004. Of note however the increase in the Black population has slight: from 66.7 in 1990. Meanwhile Hispanics have increased from 36.7 to 46.4 and Whites have increased from 28.0 to 35.7. So Hispanics are married Moms more often but also having lots more babies and beginning early.

What isn’t included in these stats is what “unmarried” actually means. You can be unmarried and have two parents involved and committed. Or not.

Certainly a lack of involved Dads and fluid families is a negative trend for all.

90

Sure. Among the Toraja in Indonesia, the teen years are spent seeking out all kinds of sexual escapades. A form of cohabitation is widely practiced in the teen years. Childbirth generally calls for marriage, but marriages are quickly and easily dissolved and it’s pretty common for young parents to go through several spouses. Children are usually raised by other community members or grandparents.

91

You neglected to provide a link but you got me interested. Deja vu when I remember all that Samoan crap. Nothing on the net regarding the Toraja supports your statement. Its as if you pulled your bullshit right out of your ass.

From Toraja Culture
An amateur anthropologist’s report

92

My statements are based on a professional anthropologist’s report, Thread of Life: Toraja Reflections of the Lifecycle. It’s a pretty good book and worth a read- it describes a culture of very sleepy adolescents who spend their nights trysting in the fields. In any case, it’s possible they have changed recently. The book mentioned that school, religious conversion and increased fertility was already causing changes.

I was wrong about the cohabitation, though. Thats the Tobrianders of New Guinea. Their teens are given their own huts, where anyone can stay over as long as they don’t stay past morning, which would signal that they are married.

Anyway, this is just a rundown of “interesting family structures that are on the house I’m subletting’s bookshelf.” The only reason our culture is so in to legitimacy is that we are a patriarchal/patrilinear culture and thus it is important to trace male lineage to determine property inheritance. Change that (say, like our culture has done in the last century) and everything changes.

93

Alternatively, we’re so into legitimacy because it indicates stable child care and higher income, which themselves have strong correlation to successful child-rearing.

Hmmm…two competing theories. I know which one I’d pick.

94

So, “legitimacy” correlates with child care and higher income, which correlates to successful childrearing?

Correlation does not equal to causation. You especially cannot get from “A correlates with B, which correlates with C” to “A causes C,” which it appears you are trying to do with the above post.

I would posit, as an alternative theory, that those who deviate from the expected norm of a two-parent heterosexual family are penalized for it, because society’s expectations and regulations are geared towards the norm.

95

Conservatives are relentless in their efforts to suppress contraception education and the availability and legitimacy of abortion. If they would expend the same efforts in being part of the solution rather than part of the problem, there is no question it would go down.

That said, efforts to promote family planning in the black community are often met with the suspicion that they are motivated by genocide.

96

Actually, I doubt that legitimacy has much correlation. It’s just a legal enforcement of stable 2-parent families, which does have a correlation.

Agreed that correlation <> causation; but if you hold all correlation suspect, you’ve pretty much removed all the underpinnings of all social sciences.

97

And perhaps society’s norm is structured to support a modern, post-industrial society that demands a huge amount of technological training beyond what any previous generations have needed to succeed. And perhaps that’s why using demographic data from relatively ‘primitive’ peoples, as some have done here, doesn’t justify an alarming trend that jeopardizes our advancement as a society.

I’m one of those that saw that stat and was shocked- and my first response was, “what can we do to help?” It boggles my mind that this is not seen as a problem, when there are quantifiable results directly tied to the issue. Yes, it is a class issue- but if blacks are overrepresented among lower socio-economic groups, they’ll be disproportionately affected. The question is, really, if there is any state solution for this behavior.

btw- I agree with sqweels on this point, a large reason why birth control efforts have failed is because, quite often, the push is made by people that would just rather see fewer black people. I remember growing up in NYC and there being a flood of a certain soda in corner stores ($25 cents per 20oz bottle!)- until it was discovered that the manufacturer was, in fact, a white supremacist, and hoped that the extra amounts of yellow-5 in the drink would depress fertility in inner city teens. Urban legend, maybe. But with things like the Tuskegee experiments, easily believed.

98

Undoubtedly.

99

Not really. “Legitimacy” describes the state of being born by married parents. It doesn’t legally enforce anything, let alone stable 2-parent families. Take a look at divorce statistics and then tell me how many “legitimate kids” will eventually end up in homes much like their “illegitimate” cohorts. According to this site, the number of divorced single mothers (US pop as a whole) was about 3.4 million in 1997. The number of never-been-married single mothers was 4.2 million. There is a difference between the numbers, but not enough to justify so much more focus on “illegitimacy”.

I say this not because I don’t think there is anything to be concerned about, but because there seems to be this strong assumption that kids produced by unmarried people are inherently worse off than kids produced by married ones, and therefore more deserving of scorn/pity/prejudice. What gets less attention are all those kids of divorced parents, who also end up with only one parent. Oh, but I guess because they’re “legitimate” then all is well. Right? That’s the problem with the labels we sometimes attach to things: “illegitimacy” connotes a negative value statement that obscures the main issue.

Single parent-hood.

What we may be seeing in these statistics is a disparity in how traditionally-defined marriage is perceived between segments of the population, either because of economic factors or because of social ones. Just as divorce rates are influenced by various factors, so are marriage rates. Since this society puts a whole lot of stock in the institution of marriage, we should definitely figure out what’s going on and address problems where they exist. But we should also explore the possibility that the definition of family, parenting, and male-female relationships is evolving because the old definitions are inadequate for some reason. Instead of automatically seeing that as a problem, we should look at the reasons these old definitions may need some tweaking. Tradition is not always the arbiter of what is right.

100

Thank you for that. I grew up during this period, and it’s good to get the facts behind it.
That said, in my experience, more African Americans are likely to believe in conspiracy theories like this (or AIDS as a man made weapon, etc.) because of real historical events.