Do Christians feel that athiests are amoral or unprincipled?

[Der_Trihs]

@Anne Neville

All right then, make it a gang of people with red hair. Then you meet me later on, and I happen to have red hair. Are you going to hold the behavior of other red-haired people against me? After all, I could change my hair color if I wanted to.

And what does red hair tell you about someone ? Nothing. Religion tells you quite a bit about someone.

@Anne Neville

You could just as well say that because there are laws that tell people to do something bad (laws in a Muslim country saying that someone should be executed for converting from Islam, for example), that means that all laws are bad.

First, that’s a religious law, with a religious motivation, which helps prove my point about the evil of religion. Wherever religion is, you will find tyranny and malice. Second, laws have a far different track history than religion, and are therefore best regarded as morally neutral, tending towards good. As a poster on another board said, “You can have order without freedom, but you can’t have freedom without order.” Laws are necessary; religions are destructive towards society.

@Anne Neville

But you’re assuming that, because one particular interpretation of Christian teachings tells people to kill gays and witches, that they all do

The Bible itself commands hatred against gays and witches; it’s part of the religion. It has nothing to do with interpetation.

@Anne Neville

More than that- you’re saying that, because one particular sect of one particular religion tells people to do something bad, all religion is evil.

No, that is only one reason out of a great many.

@FriarTed

I do hope for such people that after the Big Confrontation & some soiling of themselves, they then settle down with Yahweh/Jesus for a big long laugh at how silly they’ve been.

Why would I laugh with my enemy ? Even if he is real, I hate God, and want him dead. As I’ve said elsewhere, I regard myself as atheistic, antitheistic, and theocidal. I do not simply disbelieve in God; I think we should ignore him if he’s real, and kill him if we can.

@FriarTed

Did I say they deserve to be tortured? No, I said they should feel VERRRY uncomfortable when facing Yahweh/Jesus in the Great Confrontation.

Of course; assuming he’s real, he’s omnipotent and evil. A Hitler or Stalin with unlimited power.

@FriarTed

God will indeed explain Himself to you (a big part of that explanation will be showing you what He endured at Golgotha), but you’ll also have a lot of explaining to Him.

I care nothing for what a monster like that has suffered, assuming he did. I owe him no explanations, especially moral ones; I am morally superior to God. So is most of humanity.

@FriarTed

And the final settlement will not be on your terms, or mine, but on His.

In other words, he’s a tyrant by your own admission.

@Beaucarnea

What can we do to correct our image as humans who can make a valuable contribution to society?

Nothing; nothing atheists do will reap anything but hatred from the majority of believers.

@Sarahfeena

If a parent sincerely believes that there is an afterlife, and the only way to get there is to believe in a certain religion, wouldn’t it be unethical NOT to teach this to the child?

No, because such a belief is crazy, and incredibly destructive. It’s one of the worst of all religious beliefs, one of the worst, possibly the worst thing you can teach anyone. It justifies anything, as long as you use the argument that you are saving your victim’s soul for the afterlife. Since the “consequences” of not believing are infinite, any finite evil you commit is justified if you “save” even one person. You can kill millions, convert one of the survivors, and feel you have done infinite good.

[Sarahfeena]

@Kalhoun

The moral code I taught my son isn’t based on fantasy. It’s based on humanity. Huge difference.

So? Isn’t any moral code an awfully personal thing to try to impose on someone else? Doesn’t your son have to grow up to do what HE thinks is right?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Malacandra

So when you say “Freedom of religion begins at home”, that wouldn’t apply to a religion that entailed instructing the children in the precepts of the religion?

I think freedom of religion begins and ends with each individual. I think it’s a contradiction in terms to say that trying to brainwash children is any sort of exercise in freedom or civil liberty. Teaching them about religion is one thing. So is raising them in a particular tradition or letting them know what you believe personally. I think it crosses the line, though, if parents tell their children they’re not allowed to believe anything else, or if they represent personal beliefs as objective facts which cannot be morally questioned or rejected. They should always be made to feel that their minds belong to them, that they can ask any question they want and that they are not committing any sin if they don’t agree with you.

[Sarahfeena]

@Diogenes the Cynic

I think freedom of religion begins and ends with each individual. I think it’s a contradiction in terms to say that trying to brainwash children is any sort of exercise in freedom or civil liberty. Teaching them about religion is one thing. So is raising them in a particular tradition or letting them know what you believe personally. I think it crosses the line, though, if parents tell their children they’re not allowed to believe anything else, or if they represent personal beliefs as objective facts which cannot be morally questioned or rejected. They should always be made to feel that their minds belong to them, that they can ask any question they want and that they are not committing any sin if they don’t agree with you.

That is entirely fair, IMO, but does not reflect at all what Kalhoun said.

[Kalhoun]

@Sarahfeena

So? Isn’t any moral code an awfully personal thing to try to impose on someone else? Doesn’t your son have to grow up to do what HE thinks is right?

For the most part, he did. Children can be given guidance about how to treat others. They’ll frequently go against that and feel the consequence of that action, either through empathy or directly by having no friends, by angering parents, not receiving privileges, etc. I certainly wouldn’t threaten a child with unearthly consequences; particularly ones that are simply forgiven for no reason.

By the way, morals can only come from within. Ethics can be taught by example or rule. Religion doesn’t guarantee a good outcome any more than atheism does. The only difference between the two is the honesty with which those ethics and consequences are presented.

[Kalhoun]

@Sarahfeena

That is entirely fair, IMO, but does not reflect at all what Kalhoun said.

That’s pretty much exactly what I said.

[Sarahfeena]

@Kalhoun

That’s pretty much exactly what I said.

No, you didn’t. You said this:

An atheist can raise their children to be free individuals who can do what they want to do with respect to religion. My parents did. You can be fully into your faith (or lack thereof) without expecting others to be the same way. Others meaning your children, as well. Freedom of religion starts at home

There is nothing in this quote about teaching children about religion, or raising them in a particular religious tradition.

[Sarahfeena]

@Kalhoun

For the most part, he did. Children can be given guidance about how to treat others. They’ll frequently go against that and feel the consequence of that action, either through empathy or directly by having no friends, by angering parents, not receiving privileges, etc. I certainly wouldn’t threaten a child with unearthly consequences; particularly ones that are simply forgiven for no reason.

By the way, morals can only come from within. Ethics can be taught by example or rule. Religion doesn’t guarantee a good outcome any more than atheism does. The only difference between the two is the honesty with which those ethics and consequences are presented.

But, why give them guidance about how to treat others? Isn’t it awfull nervy to assume that the way YOU believe you should treat others is what EVERYONE should believe?

And I agree, ethics can be taught by anyone. But there is nothing inherently wrong with teaching them within a religious framework, any more than there is with teaching them within a humanist framework.

[DanBlather]

@FriarTed

Did I say they deserve to be tortured? No, I said they should feel VERRRY uncomfortable when facing Yahweh/Jesus in the Great Confrontation.

For some, unbelief is not an act of will; for others, it very much is.

God will indeed explain Himself to you (a big part of that explanation will be showing you what He endured at Golgotha), but you’ll also have a lot of explaining to Him. And the final settlement will not be on your terms, or mine, but on His.

Yahweh: So, Ted, please explain why you have rejected so many of the laws I clearly set out in my best seller.
FT: What do you mean, I followed the laws as set out by your son, Jesus.
Yahweh: Him? He’s not my son, do you think I would have let my son be crucified between two common theives?
FT: But the bible says …
Yahweh Interupting: The BIBLE is what you call the Old Testament, as though what I said would ever go out of style. I am damning you to eternity in hell for choosing a new “life style” that goes against my teachings.
FT: Well at least I will have company with all the Athesists for the SDMB.
Yahweh: No, they are OK. As long as they lived a good life I give them a pass. You, however, have chosen to deliberately worship someone who claim’s to be me and follow a new book other than the bible. BTW, what is it about “one god” you don’t understand. That trilogy schtick is getting pretty old. So off to hell!
FT: Aiyeee! Eternity of Davey and Goliath reruns. I hate puppets!!

[Kalhoun]

@Sarahfeena

No, you didn’t. You said this:

There is nothing in this quote about teaching children about religion, or raising them in a particular religious tradition.

I was free to explore all religions (and did explore judaeism and catholicism – the Big Two in my neighborhood) and took a look at other religions on my own as I got older. I was raised in no religious tradition; nor was my son. That’s not to say I didn’t answer questions, point him in the direction of answers I didn’t have, or forbid him to look into any of it. I simply didn’t expect any more than civil behavior and respect for other people. He understood that without lies, misrepresentation, or guilt.

Tell me…when your children are old enough to stay home alone for an hour or so, will you force them to go to church with you?

[Pazu]

@FriarTed

For some, unbelief is not an act of will; for others, it very much is.

I roll to disbelieve the illusion!

God will indeed explain Himself to you (a big part of that explanation will be showing you what He endured at Golgotha)[…]

Didn’t he make a movie just for that? No, wait, that was only someone who thinks he’s God.

[…]but you’ll also have a lot of explaining to Him. And the final settlement will not be on your terms, or mine, but on His.

What possible use would any explanation of mine be to an omniscient God?

Also, to further expand on an earlier point, you said:

Just like I am sure you would enjoy the sight of us C’tians realizing we’d been had if God/the Afterlife turns out totally different than what we expected.

So let’s run with this hypothetical.

Bang! Suddenly we’re both dead and we find ourselves in some kind of afterlife. I’m, of course, surprised that there is any such thing. You, I assume, aren’t surprised there’s an afterlife, but for the sake of the argument we’ll say that it isn’t at all what you expected.

Now, I can’t speak for anyone else, but my first priorities are: explore, discover the (meta)physical characteristics of my new existence, ascertain boundaries and capabilities, and see who else is around, especially friends and loved ones. If things don’t seem unpleasant, I would see if I could find or invent a way to tell my still-living friends and loved ones that things are okay.

The idea of self-satisfaction over “Wow, those Christians sure were mistaken” is really nowhere in my list of things to do. Except insofar as making sure my religious (and I’ll assume this afterlife is nothing like that of any major religion, and no one’s being reincarnated) friends are doing okay.

I mean, it’s a whole new frickin’ existence to explore!

How do you, FriarTed, react in this hypothetical situation?

(I suppose you could still say, “Baw haw, those atheists were wrong, there is an afterlife!” )

[Beaucarnea]

@DanBlather

Yahweh: So, Ted, please explain why you have rejected so many of the laws I clearly set out in my best seller.
FT: What do you mean, I followed the laws as set out by your son, Jesus.
Yahweh: Him? He’s not my son, do you think I would have let my son be crucified between two common theives?
FT: But the bible says …
Yahweh Interupting: The BIBLE is what you call the Old Testament, as though what I said would ever go out of style. I am damning you to eternity in hell for choosing a new “life style” that goes against my teachings.
FT: Well at least I will have company with all the Athesists for the SDMB.
Yahweh: No, they are OK. As long as they lived a good life I give them a pass. You, however, have chosen to deliberately worship someone who claim’s to be me and follow a new book other than the bible. BTW, what is it about “one god” you don’t understand. That trilogy schtick is getting pretty old. So off to hell!
FT: Aiyeee! Eternity of Davey and Goliath reruns. I hate puppets!!

Dan Blather, I find this kind of parody hilarious. You should animate this.

[Anne_Neville]

@Der Trihs

And what does red hair tell you about someone ? Nothing. Religion tells you quite a bit about someone.

Only because you think all people of a given religion are alike. They’re not, any more than all red-haired people are. Even different people within the same denomination of a religion don’t necessarily all believe or do the same things.

The Bible itself commands hatred against gays and witches; it’s part of the religion. It has nothing to do with interpetation.

And the idea that that passage in the Bible (or any other passage in any other text) should be read literally is an interpretation. It’s not the only possible interpretation, and it’s not necessarily more valid than any other interpretation. Here’s another interpretation of the Bible text about gays.

[Pazu]

@Sarahfeena

I have to strongly agree with this. I will encourage my daughter to marry a Catholic.

Regardless of whether or not she herself remains one?

[Sarahfeena]

@Kalhoun

I was free to explore all religions (and did explore judaeism and catholicism – the Big Two in my neighborhood) and took a look at other religions on my own as I got older. I was raised in no religious tradition; nor was my son. That’s not to say I didn’t answer questions, point him in the direction of answers I didn’t have, or forbid him to look into any of it. I simply didn’t expect any more than civil behavior and respect for other people. He understood that without lies, misrepresentation, or guilt.

Tell me…when your children are old enough to stay home alone for an hour or so, will you force them to go to church with you?

First of all, none of what you said allows for raising children in a religious tradition. Great that you were free to explore religion, and that you allowed your son the same. None of that means that if you HAVE a religion, it is wrong to teach it to your children.

My sincere wish and hope is that when my children are old enough to start thinking about making decisions for myself, they will still be interested in attending church. If they aren’t, I guess I am going to have to think about it. My personal belief is that if my children live under my roof, they should have to live by my rules. So, I don’t have a particular moral problem with forcing them to go to church. But it will probably depend a lot on what I percieve the issue to be. If they just would prefer to sleep in, I would probably make them go. If they are old enough and have thought about it enough to give me a coherent, reasonable explanation as to why they don’t want to go, or why they have a problem with the religion, I would probably consider letting them stay home. I also do not wish to cause anyone to resent religion because of forced involvement (although it was the rule in my parents’ house that we attend mass every week, and all 4 of us are still churchgoers).

Not sure what their father would say, however.

[Sarahfeena]

@Pazu

Regardless of whether or not she herself remains one?

Ha ha. Well, you know, I’m taking it as a given at this point that she will (give me a break, she’s only 2. I’m trying to deal with potty training right now, not religion!) But, in all sincerity, if she chose to follow another religion, I would probably advise her to marry someone of that religion. I think it’s generally rewarding to be of the same faith as one’s spouse, and much less complicated for raising chidren.

[Kalhoun]

@Sarahfeena

But, why give them guidance about how to treat others? Isn’t it awfull nervy to assume that the way YOU believe you should treat others is what EVERYONE should believe?

And I agree, ethics can be taught by anyone. But there is nothing inherently wrong with teaching them within a religious framework, any more than there is with teaching them within a humanist framework.

I’m not saying that we shouldn’t teach anything. Obviously nurturing is important in keeping the world on an even keel. But there’s plenty wrong with teaching something that I find inherently disingenuous (much like your silly persistence in arguing this point). I taught my son to be a good person because it’s the right thing to do; not because there is some unearthly monster who will kick him to the curb if he doesn’t. It’s called personal responsibility. It’s its own reward.

Obviously our children won’t see eye to eye with us on everything we do. But I think the basis for which something is taught should be authentic.

[Sarahfeena]

@Kalhoun

I’m not saying that we shouldn’t teach anything. Obviously nurturing is important in keeping the world on an even keel. But there’s plenty wrong with teaching something that I find inherently disingenuous (much like your silly persistence in arguing this point). I taught my son to be a good person because it’s the right thing to do; not because there is some unearthly monster who will kick him to the curb if he doesn’t. It’s called personal responsibility. It’s its own reward.

Obviously our children won’t see eye to eye with us on everything we do. But I think the basis for which something is taught should be authentic.

I certainly do not want to persist in silliness, so I will let you have the last word on this one.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Sarahfeena

I certainly do not want to persist in silliness, so I will let you have the last word on this one.

Er, you do realise by saying that you’re having the last word?

[Kalhoun]

@Sarahfeena

First of all, none of what you said allows for raising children in a religious tradition. Great that you were free to explore religion, and that you allowed your son the same. None of that means that if you HAVE a religion, it is wrong to teach it to your children.

In my opinion t’s wrong if it’s forced on them. It’s wrong if that’s the only religion you teach. And it’s particularly wrong if you teach them that faith is the same as fact.

My sincere wish and hope is that when my children are old enough to start thinking about making decisions for myself, they will still be interested in attending church. If they aren’t, I guess I am going to have to think about it. My personal belief is that if my children live under my roof, they should have to live by my rules. So, I don’t have a particular moral problem with forcing them to go to church. But it will probably depend a lot on what I percieve the issue to be. If they just would prefer to sleep in, I would probably make them go. If they are old enough and have thought about it enough to give me a coherent, reasonable explanation as to why they don’t want to go, or why they have a problem with the religion, I would probably consider letting them stay home. I also do not wish to cause anyone to resent religion because of forced involvement (although it was the rule in my parents’ house that we attend mass every week, and all 4 of us are still churchgoers).

Not sure what their father would say, however.

What if their explanation is that they simply don’t believe anything they’re being told?