Raindog, who are you trying to kid? I’ve read most of the “hell” discussions on this board over the years, and unless you have been conked on the head recently, I know what your argument is going to be. Your going to tell me that you looked up many if not all of the verses I mentioned (and will mention) in Greek; you’re going to maintain that hell isn’t real; that Lazarus’ rich friend’s suffering can be disregarded; that when Jesus says it’s better to have you eyes gouged out than go to hell, that hell isn’t really bad. You’re going to say hell just means Jesus/god murders your soul, and for some reason you think that’s still consistent behavior of an all loving god. Then you’re going to maintain that heaven, that we can trust as real, and everything wonderful that Jesus promised.
So please, quit pussyfooting around and make your argument. I’ll apologize in advance for the ass you’re going to end up looking like, but I will thank you for giving me one more opportunity to illustrate what a tool your lord and savior is.
Of course, and in order to make this point you’ve had to equate belief in God with belief in an imaginary friend (the latter being the preserve of the childish).
:rolleyes: backatcha. Either substitution of terms in an argument is valid or it is not.
I agree that dual-theist childrearing is a cop-out, but I disagree that core values can’t be compatible. You don’t have to insist that someone else worship the same way you do. You don’t know what’s truly in anyone’s head or heart. They could feel the same way you do without expressing it in the same way. There are plenty of lopsided religious families…where the mother takes the kids to church but the dad is still a believer in his heart.
And yes, it actually IS saying the parents are mistaken (which is my opinion anyway). It DOES say that atheists can’t be trusted to offer a good life to a son or daughter. Otherwise, there’d be no objection.
I have to strongly agree with this. I will encourage my daughter to marry a Catholic. This has nothing to do whatsoever with having a mistrust of anyone who is of another religion or no religion, or believing that they are bad people. I personally believe that sharing a faith helps make a marriage & family strong, that it is easier to stick with a faith during hard times if you have someone to share it with, and that it is much less complicated to raise a child in one faith rather than two. If I was any other religion, I’m sure I would feel the same way. Don’t assume that just because a parent wants his or her child to stay with the faith they were raised with that this means they have a low opinion of other faiths.
You don’t have to insist that someone else worship the same way you do. You don’t know what’s truly in anyone’s head or heart. They could feel the same way you do without expressing it in the same way. There are plenty of lopsided religious families…where the mother takes the kids to church but the dad is still a believer in his heart.
It is inaccurate to describe this as a lack of trust. It isn’t. It’s merely recognizing that the conflicting religious values would not allow these religious (or anti-religious) values to be taught unambiguously. Again, I think that parents would be perfectly justified in expressing concern that their grandchildren would be given a mixed message.
I repeat: It’s not a matter of trust; rather, it’s a matter of reasonable expectations. It is completely unreasonable to expect that an atheist father would raise his children to believe in God. Is this being distrustful of the father? Not at all. It’s just plain common sense.
An atheist can raise their children to be free individuals who can do what they want to do with respect to religion. My parents did. You can be fully into your faith (or lack thereof) without expecting others to be the same way. *Others * meaning your children, as well. Freedom of religion starts at home.
If a parent chooses to do that, that’s fine. But if a parent wants to raise a child in a particular faith, with that faith’s values and moral code, there is nothing wrong with that.
I’m an atheist married to a non practising catholic. We have two children and the third will be with us in the next few weeks. Neither one of us has tried to force our beliefs or lack of onto the boys. When religion comes up we explain that lots of people believe lots of different things and it is upto the individual to decide what is best for them. We use the football analogy a lot to answer any questions that pop up. Some people support Chelsea, some people support Man U, some people don’t like football. It’s upto them to decide which team, if any, they support. They seem to be able to handle this without a problem. If one of them grew up and wanted to be a Priest, I’d be disappointed, but I would know that the decision was theirs.
Ok the fact that my wife only goes to mass at christmas has probably made it easier. If she was off there every week it might have been a problem. As it is, it isn’t too hard to remain neutral about religion.
Also, she became a catholic when she was in her late teens. She had been dragged up as a methodist and hated it. So she’s very into being allowed to choose your own path.
From a University of Minnesota studyin March: Atheists identified as America’s most distrusted minority, according to new U of M study
From the study: Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”
What can we do to correct our image as humans who can make a valuable contribution to society?
I’m a nontheist married to a Christian. Our kids our being raised in my wife’s church. Our oldest goes to a Catholic school. We teach our kids that some people believe in God and some don’t, that nobody knows for sure and that they’re allowed to believe whatever they want. We’ve never had any compatability issues or differing “values.” We also don’t feel any need to decide what our children have to believe (much less any potential grandchildren). Their minds belong to them, not us. I don’t really care what they decide and don’t understand why anybody else needs their offspring to believe exactly as they do. If that’s a “value,” it’s not a very useful one and strikes me as kind of selfish.
So when you say “Freedom of religion begins at home”, that wouldn’t apply to a religion that entailed instructing the children in the precepts of the religion?
I knew you weren’t. I still think it’s nervy to raise children to believe in a particular religion. Perfectly legal, but I don’t think anyone has an ethical right to sway someone into believing one way or another about something that personal.
My mother and father (married 41 years) allowed us both to choose our churches. I left the Methodist church at nine after arriving at the conclusion that those who insist the Bible be taken literally frequently skew the text to support whatever social and political view they espouse.
Faith and religion were often discussed in my home, and it was made very clear that we children were to choose our own faith. My father has never confirmed that he is an atheist for fear of influencing his children. Both of my grandfathers were doctors and confirmed atheists; both of their wifes were practicing Christians.
Atheism isn’t genetic in my home. Nor is it encouraged or discouraged. We get along fine.
Wow. That is extraordinary. First of all, how is it different from teaching a child any moral code at all? Isn’t it nervy to impose ANY belief on children, then? And secondly, you have to understand what religion is. If a parent sincerely believes that there is an afterlife, and the only way to get there is to believe in a certain religion, wouldn’t it be unethical NOT to teach this to the child?
