Do gender roles still have relevence in our society today?

Great Debates
81

Well, to be completely honest, I have been avoiding that question of yours the last few times it’s popped up. I’ll answer the question, “what are the differences,” once I have a little time to really really think about it, so stay tuned!

But, to some degree (I hope I’m using this term correctly here) I feel like you’re playing a bit of a straw man. Unless you’re suggesting that society has been delusional throughout its history (not that I don’t understand that it has been delusional about a great many things in the past), then there is a difference between male and female, and it is possible to determine that difference. It seems to me that the burden of proof lies upon the opinion that there is no difference. But, your point is well taken regarding what those specific differences are, and as I said, let me think about it, formulate something that is hopefully more coherent than a lot of what came before, and get back to you. :slight_smile:

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Eonwe, the rhetorical burden of proof does in fact fall squarely on you, as you made the assertion that there was a difference in the first place. (Also, in general, the positive statement “there is a difference” is the one that bears the burden of proof because proving a negative is often impossible.)

And I don’t accept hysterical raisins as proof. The practice of slavery was condoned as morally appropriate throughout much of history. And yet that doesn’t make it right.

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KellyM, I must confess that I’m a bit confused. This may be because I’m entering the discussion late–so perhaps I missed
something in the lightning-speed skim I had through the thread when I first entered the fray a couple of days ago. If that’s the case I apologize.

Assuming, for the moment, that I didn’t miss something relevant, I’m not clear, KellyM., on your position with respect to E.

I can understand why you are asking Eonwe to explain the importance that E. attributes to sexual difference, in addition to other questions as E’s understanding of the nature of sexual difference (male vs. female), and its relation to gender (masculine, femininine, androgynous, what have you).

But now it seems as though you are pushing E. to prove that sexual difference (male/female) exists–historically and otherwise.

Personally, I think that history is exactly what ought to be consulted in this case. Your example of slavery tell us why. Yes, it’s true that slavery was once thought morally appropriate is now thought morally heinous. And that provides us with proof that definitions of morality vary across time; that “morality” is not a question of fixed, transcendent truths. But in doing so history also provides us with proof that slavery existed: there was, in other words, a real (material, legal) condition of slavery in, say, ante-bellum United States history.

I’d say the same thing about history and its relation to gender and sex. What history shows us time and time again is that the meanings that have been attached to the anatomical fact of sex vary, sometimes dramatically, across times and across cultures. So, by analogy to the latter I’d say that the meanings associated with “gender” are historically variable; but I don’t see any particular need or benefit to go further by trying to erase the material fact of anatomical difference.

And I’m not really clear that that’s what you’re trying to do. But I do think you may be conveying that impression. What burden of proof do you want Eonwe to bear?

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Mandelstam, I don’t really care what burden of proof Eonwe bears. I’m just trying to push this discussion along. Your comments are intriguing in and of themselves, and so I’m glad that my comments spurred them.

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KellyM, I get your point about slavery, but I’m not talking about a moral issue here, and I don’t even know if it’s an absolute factual issue.

You said:

and in fact that’s very frustrating. I am enjoying this conversation and find it immensely valuable. I find your challenges to my thought processes stimulating, and am glad we’re all participating in this. But, it also seems like most of what you have to say is that I’m wrong, which is fine, but I really have no idea where you’re coming from. I’m curious, and it might help me get to where you seem to want me to get with less of me flailing around if you’d give me more of an alternative point of view. You say the differences between men and women are not as obvious as I think? Well, you obviously have some idea of what those perceived differences are and why they’re not so obvious, so share! It’s pretty easy to shoot down something someone else says, but it can make for frustrating conversation.

As far as how I define men and women, first, do you grant me that there is such a thing, and that those two words do not in fact mean the same thing? If not, why not?

Mandelstam says pretty much what I tried to get across before (I think… hopefully I’m not putting words in you mouth), that the simple fact that we have two concepts called male and female supports itself, while the content and character of those words may change over time. If you asked me to prove that pine trees existed, and in fact they’re not as “pine tree-ish” as I might have thought, I’d still say there was such a thing, since we all managed to find charactaristics similar to all of those things and call them pine trees.

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Talk to any K-12 teacher (teacher of children ages 5-18, for you non-US SDopers), and he or she will verify that girls in general develop verbal abilities earlier, and have better writing and vocabulary skills throughout their childhood, than boys.

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Walloon, earlier development is one thing.

Better writing and vocabulary “throughout their childhood”–I think that’s a very debatable point.

Vocabulary is largely a matter of what hears and reads: so if there is some demonstrable trend towards higher female testing on vocabulary, it’s probably because girls are reading more than boys. (I have a funny feeling that boys these days spend more time playing computer games than girls do.)

Writing, IMO, is less directly affected by how much one reads: that is, I do think some people have a knack for it. But I’ve never noticed this to be a matter of one’s sex. I could refer to my own teaching experience, but I really don’t have to. Look around you on the Straight Dope. Have you ever noticed a marked difference between the verbal skills of male vs. female posters? I rather doubt that.

And then there’s Squish’s original point: no shortage of “great” male writers in the world; in fact, rather a preponderance of them actually (though that’s yet another discussion).

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Isn’t a lot of that on average? On average, girls tend to be better than boys at English. But when you’re talking about great writers, naturally you’re looking at those people (men and women) who happen to be really good at that particular thing. And while one gender may in general be good at that subject, it doesn’t pertain to the individual.

Perhaps the amount one reads does come into it. I think writing and vocab are both affected by how much you read, and that might be something boys aren’t encouraged to do. Or maybe it’s classrooms that don’t really cater to boys’ needs, that discourage boys from being loud or enthousiastic, and ignoring them in favor of girls.

In any event, there are probably lots of men and women who have no real interest in science/math or the humanities. Or in education. So does it make sense to classify men and women based on this?

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Actually, Zoggie, I’m not ready to concede that “on average” girls tend to better than boys at English. I think it’s possible that there may be some standardized testing that shows girls doing better “on average” in vocabulary tests–but for the cultural reasons I mentioned, not because, say, 12-year-old boys are, for biological reasons, less verbal than girls. I doubt that very much.

I know that there are some trends showing slightly more women going to college than men; and this is because teenage girls are doing better in school than are boys. But, first, that is a relatively recent phenomenon, and, second, the main source of the difference, IIRC, is the gap between African-American boys and African-American girls. So, again, I suspect a cultural rather than biological and sex-based factor there.

I read a lot of student writing, btw–at the higher-ed level–and have never noticed anything like a sex-based difference in the ability to write a good paper, read difficult books, articulate thoughts in the classroom. I don’t teach English per se, but close enough.

As to your last question, IMO, no, defnitely not.

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That’s true. I guess that’s just what we’re hearing nowadays- that girls are so much more academic. But then again, years and years ago, educated people thought that women just weren’t meant to study Greek/Latin…so I suppose society is to blame for a lot of things.

When you get someone who has a lot of talent in, for example, English, at a certain point I don’t think it matters what gender they are. In a really really high level literature course, it will probably depend on how much time/effort is put in. After a certain point, in a class full of talented writers, both girls and boys, gender really doesn’t make a huge difference.

And culture probably is at the root of it. Now that the trend has swung towards girls doing well, boys aren’t seeing education as something important. So we could blame this on a case of misplaced priorities. In a few more years, maybe the pendulum will swing back, and educators will make a huge effort to help boys, and thus academics will be a “guy” thing.

Plus, there is a lot of it that depends on individuals. Being born a woman doesn’t make you an instant writer. There are a lot of other factors going into it. All things considered, I don’t believe gender should be a hindrance when it comes to achieving one’s goals.

91

We need separated restrooms because that’s where people go to dish on who they are on a date with and not have the other person overhear. Admittedly, women do tend to go to the restroom together more often. That’s where they talk about whether they think you are good-looking or not. I would imagine it to be quite embarassing if one part of the date were phoning a friend to come pick her up for an “emergency” when other part of date walks in and overhears it. In short, the can provides a place of respite from the other sex. Don’t knock the loo. It is hallowed.

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Unless they’re gay.