Hi,
I am from Pakistani and since the nuclear explosions by both countries well now both possess deadly weapons of mass destruction.The world slapped sanctions on our countries after the bombs.
Well don’t we have a right to be nuclear powers.I am not for atom bombs.I mean i am totally against it.However isn’t it kinda biased if America,China,Russia,France,England etc. own nuclear weapons and slap sanctions on you for having them too.Isn’t this unfair.Who are they to tell everyone what to do especially if they are doing it too?
Also why is it that the world sympathses with india when in fact india did the explosions and started hurling offensive threats to Pakistan immediately after that.Pakistan had no choice but to explode the bombs.
Well what is your view on the matter.
Bye
Zeeshan
Fair or not, the world does not want to see a nuclear arms race develop between Pakistan and India. America/Russia are still trying to find ways to reduce the insane number of nuclear weapons that were developed during their past arms race. It’s a slippery slope to start on that benefits no one. America/Russia were only able to keep their posturing under control through another insane concept of “mutually assured destruction”.
Having the technology is one thing, but if I recall, the sactions did not happen until all the testing that occurred near the Pakistan/India border.
The world also gave France grief when they last tested their bombs too (although I don’t think there were any sanctions were there?)
I don’t think that any country anywhere has a “right” to nuclear weapons, the U.S. included. What, owning nukes is some kind of nationhood adult rite of passage, like getting your driver’s license?
The only thing that gives a country the “right” to nuclear weapons is the ability to manufacture them. IMHO, of course.
Yeah but how can you slap sanctions and not want an arms race if you have the most nuclear weapons on the planet.Shouldn’t rules apply to everyone.
Bye
Zeeshan
Phobos: *America/Russia are still trying to find ways to reduce the insane number of nuclear weapons that were developed during their past arms race. *
And not trying all that hard, either.
It’s human nature (although that doesn’t make it right) to feel that you, or your country, can be trusted with responsibilities that others aren’t up to. In addition, nuclear proliferation anywhere is a matter of very justifiable concern: the more such weapons there are in circulation, the more likely it is that a mistake or a crime will lead to catastrophic results. And Westerners tend to assume (without any real evidence, as far as I can see) that such a mistake or crime is more likely to happen in a “Third World” country than in the Western nations whose nuclear capabilities we’ve more or less gotten used to. All of this makes the West very nervous when there are nuclear tests in South Asia.
America,China,Russia,France,England, and you forgot Israel are either not engaged in conflicts OR they are engaged in conflicts that have no immediate threat of going nuclear.
Seriously, who are the Brits going to bomb? The Israelis would take as many of their own out if they used it.
Pakistan and India are on a collision course. They are increasingly antagonistic towards each other and are not looking to compromise in any way. The Lahore Peace Agreement lasted what, 3 months?
Who said that the desire to take nuclear weapons out of their hands meant that the rest of the world should be allowed to keep them?
I have not really encountered any bias towards Pakistan or India in the US. But any bias that you might find probably would be related to that little military coup that took democratic rights away from the population.
I guess I don’t see the arguement here. What does “rights” have to do with it? This is purely a scientific endeavor. Anyone with the wherewithall to create such weapons can and will do it. Rights??? Yeah sure… thank you. drive through
Ah, the song remains the same. “The tighter I draw the bow, the safer I become.”
People outside of the controversy between India and Pakistan don’t want either to have The Bomb because it increases world political uncertainty. The more nuclear weapons proliferate, the more likely it is that someone will be tempted to use them.
Think of it as five guys locked in a basement, each with nothing but a hand grenade. They are loosely aligned into two groups. All know that if one tosses a grenade, everyone is likely to get hurt if not killed. But it’s okay because even though Bubba, Winston and Jaques (sort of) don’t like Dmitri and Xiang (sort of), they know that if any one starts tossing, nobody’s likely to get out of the basement alive.
But now you toss in Nusrat and Indira, also with a grenade each. They don’t like each other. And Nusrat’s got something that Dmitri wants really bad. And Winston has had bad blood with both in the past. And Xiang might be up to something, too. And nobody’s going to appreciate Bubba or Jaques sticking their noses into anyone else’s business to try to calm things down–or twist things to their own respective advantages.
Is anyone safer? Hell, no. But you can be damned certain that each will spend just a little more time and effort watching and distrusting each other. And nobody’s even thinking about how to get out of the basement anymore.
Brilliant analogy, Sofa King… however, as an Indian (albeit as one who thinks that the entire India/Pakistan nuke thing is a royal mess), I can see the Asian side of the argument.
Basically, what gives the US the right to tell India what to do? One of two things: either because the US knows what is best for the region, and is a trusted ally. This is obviously untrue, and a rather arrogant position for Americans to take.
The other: because the US is speaking from a position of power. Which, of course, is true. Unfortunately, nobody likes to be bullied, least of all such nationalistic states as India and Pakistan.
Then you look at how the US got into said position of power. (Well, lets at least look at the perception of this ascent). They got it through military power, and essentially, by making the same series of choices and decisions that India and Pakistan are in the midst of dealing with.
Is this supposed to be like the Milton Bradley game Life, where the first person to cross the bridge gets to charge a toll? From the Southeast Asian’s point of view, heck no!
[analogy]
So lets fit this into your basement/grenade theory. The actuality of the situation was, even though Bubba, Winston, Jacques, Dmitri and Xiang were mentioned in your analogy, they weren’t the only ones in the room. Indira, Nusrat, Juan, Kwame, and all the others were there too. They were just cowering in the corner, hoping that the crazies with the grenades weren’t about to start tossing them.
To make matters worse, when the Big Five weren’t bickering, they were using the grenades to threaten the other occupants of the basement. Occasionally, they would even pull the pin out, and then put it back in, and yell “Fooled you!”
Whats a third world leader to do? Indira and Nusrat suddenly got an idea! They hated each other, and constantly tried to poke each other with sticks. But the grenadiers kept sticking their noses into things, like they new what was best. But, what if they got grenades too? Then they’d be able to ignore the nosy grenade weilding psychos, and settle their differences amongst themselves.
[/analogy]
So, you can see how, in a limited mindset, this makes perfect sense to India and Pakistan.
And now, looking at it from a slightly broader mindset: Sure nobody’s thinking about getting out of that room now. But its not like it was happening before, either. In fact, the Big Five, while threatening other people with the grenades, they were also telling them that it was evil to have the grenades in the first place. However, they still refuse to put the grenades down. Which, of course, immediately takes away any credibility they might have had.
MilTan
You are also forgetting the religious angle. The Christians have the bomb, the Jews have it even the athiests have it(China) so why not the Muslims. Why not the Hindus
The fact the a third rate power like France has them makes a poor argument against opposing any nation from accuiring it.
France hasn’t been a real power since it was defeated in the Franco Prussian war.
Touche, my friend.
My limited mindset wants to keep the number of nations who can project deadly power across the globe to a minimum, both because it theoretically helps humanity as a whole and pragmatically helps me in furthering my own ends. Sure, America will be happy to get rid of The Bomb just as soon as everyone else does–but I’ll be sure to keep a couple, just in case. I don’t trust my own nation to play nicely with me, much less anyone else. Why should you?
But that’s the vortex of nuclear standoff. Once you have them, you cannot go back. The more nations that are introduced into the world nuclear power game, the less stable we all become, and the greater the risk of accidental total destruction or expanded conflict. Global nuclear destruction, I am convinced, has its own critical mass, and each nation that achieves the capability is like another lead brick in the squash court.
The real question, I suppose, is who is going to interrupt the cycle? Do we need to see, ourselves, how devastating a nuclear exchange will be? You, my friends, are now the most likely candidates to demonstrate such a monstrosity, on a scale that might just be small enough for the rest of the world to witness without total demise. What are you going to do?
The dispute between India & Pakistan is, as I understand it, rooted in mutual religious differences.
Historically, religious warfare always; and I chose the word *always * very carefully; always results in horrfying acts of excess & irrational mass murder. Few religious wars end quickly or cleanly.
Most last for centuries.
The rest of the world is frantic with fear. You guys (India & Pakistan) will use these weapons. And the effects of The Bomb reach far beyond the borders of the nations involved.
KEEP YOUR LOUSY FALLOUT TO YOURSELVES DAMMIT!!!
If you idiots want to kill one another & all your future generation in a war over something as subjective as religion----GO GET A BUNCH OF WOODEN CLUBS & BEAT ONE ANOTHER TO DEATH & LEAVE US OUT OF IT!!! :mad:
Does anyone really “deserve” to be nuclear powers?
Why the HELL would you want to add such danger to that mess already?
Sheesh, it’s bad enough these weapons exist in the first place…Ask anyone who was alive during the Cuban Missile Crisis if it’s a good idea…
As for what gives the US the right to tell India/Pakistan what to do…Well, for one, prior experience. 1945-early 90’s there was:
a. the persistent fear of nuclear was.
and then
b. the corresponding buildup of nuclear stockpiles in response to this fear.
Of course one might make the case that the correct order of events is actually b then a, but anyways…
We’ve been there and done that. Maybe you guys should listen to us instead of decrying US hegemony.
By they wat, Bosda makes a really good point about the fallout. It should also be noted that the Indians and Pakistanis have been using old and crappy materials in their nuclear projects.
That, folks, means an especially nasty and dirty fallout. The area, especially India, already has an overstressed ecological system and China is north of the area and wouldn’t be fond of a cloud of fallout coming over their country.
Oh come on… I never ever said that them having nukes was a good thing. I think anyone having nukes is horrible. I just wanted to point out that, from India and Pakistan’s standpoint, having nuclear weapons is very easily justifiable. Now, to address some of the other points (haha… I never saw myself as having to defend the unpopular side in a GD discussion)
Its exactly that type of statement, tossed around carelessly, that has promoted antagonism towards the US. How do you think the US would react if someone else told them how to run their life (if I remember correctly, the last time that happened, we set off the Revolutionary War).
When you make a comment, it would be nice if you would refrain from using random demeaning adjectives.
Sofa King:
Thank you for a well reasoned and thought out answer, as opposed to something approaching hysterics from Bosda. To tell you the truth, I agree with you. I just felt that it was my duty as an Indian (who, btw, was born here in the US of A, and considers himself an American first) to shed some light on the possible mindset of these Southeast Asian countries
MilTan
The US should make it very clear: the 1st country to use atomic weapons (again) will be made into a glowing glassy parking lot. And if you folks out there in the subcontinent say that is being a bully, well, so?
If I was prez I would send the marines to comb Iraq border to border for 'weapons of mass destruction", and then do the same to the rest of the small atomic powers. Yes, I would be a very mean bully. Then I would offer Russia, etc 1 million in hard US currency for every nuclear weapon they turn over, until they just have a token few to ward off China. I would cut off all trade with China, and arm Taiwan, until China agree to get rid of all long range missles. I would spend the money to put “killer satelites”, capable of stopping SOME ICBMS, up. Then I would disarm about half of our stuff. France and Britain would be influenced to partially disarm also. So, what would be left is a token nuclear arsenal for the “big 5”, and nothing for anyone else.
Daniel might bring in the religious vote but unless I quit smoking and start working out, it would be wise to pick a different VP candidate.
[hijacking my own thread]
How can you say that the coup took democratic rights away from the people.Who gave you that idea.The military coup is the best thing that happened to this country.Is the fact that people are finally paying their taxes,we have increased exports dramatically,corrupt politicians are finally being tried and convicted no matter how powerful they are,our cabinet is made of leaders in their fields and not illiterate fools who would pay for votes and then plunder the countries resources.
Look General Musharaff may be considered an evil man just 'cos he was responsible for kicking india’s ass in Kargil but thats no reason for the rest of the world to hate him.The Lahore declaration was a joke.Not a single Pakistani bought it.The whole thing was done for political gains in terms of political popularity.They weren’t even discussing Kashmir.Our conflict is not religious,its over kashmir.It has a history.There are more muslims in india than in Pakistan and the hindus in Pakistan have never complained of anything so there is no religious thing.In fact i like indians myself.I love indian movies and stuff.
You know why you guys really hate Musharraf and his “cronies”?It’s 'cos they don’t suck up to anyone and they have the power to give Pakistan real freedom.I think i should start a separate thread for this one.They took us away from the democratic joke.I know the americans are democratic and stuff but you guys have true democracy.In our country democracy has bought more misery to the people than the military and this military govt. has freed the press,now anyone can say whatever they wants against Musharraf.You should read the newspapers to find out.We have the indian point of view printed too,which is mostly anti-pakistan,but it is printed.We are gonna have private TV channels now when our only private channel was shut down by the Nawaz regime.Also newspapers,did you know that the Nawaz Sharif Government refused our leading newspaper publishers newsprint.Their newspaper came out as a single page for a couple of days and then vanished altogether.The threat was that until you conform to our viewsand print whatever we want you to print,you will not be allowed to print anything at all.
But hey its democracy.
Bye
Zeeshan
The effects of nuclear proliferation, let alone nuclear proliferation among countries with half a century of ceaseless religious/ethnic/territorial disputes, are bad enough to justify the U.S. sticking it’s big, hypocritical nose into the affairs of other nations. Pakistan’s (and India’s) nuclear detonations were nothing more than macho saber-rattling. Except replace “saber” with “thermo-nuclear warhead,” and that’s not cool.
And let’s not think that the world’s reaction has anything to do with the fact that these are non-western nations. Can you imagine the response if, say, Germany decided to develop nuclear weapons? In fact, I have it on good authority that should the words “German”, “Nuclear”, “Weapons”, and “Project” even appear in the same paragraph, all of France collectively loses bowel control for one full hour. It’s true.
Its like this,
You turn to a friend for advice in a situation, could be a drug problem could be a problem with your wife.
You get the advice and try it, it works out for you.
Later you discover that your advisor has plenty of problems of his own that he ought to do something about and you try to help him but he refuses to listen.
The US, the developed world in fact, is good at giving advice even if some of it helps to entrench its own power but it is crap at being critical of itself.
Still true that the only reasons that India is a nuclear power is that it is motivated against Pakistan and vice-versa, there is not a world strategic view of things there.