Quote: “If the US is definitely not going to use them, why have them?”
Because they are not frickin’ milk cartons. You can’t toss them away the second one decides to scale down. The disposal is almost as controversial as the creation.
Quote: “If they’re going to stop caring about nukes, why shoot down the CTBT?”
Bcause they are politicians. CTBT will eventually be ratified just like…
The Intermediate Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty 1988
The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) (1968)
The Strategic Arms Reduction Treaties (START) 1
The Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty (1972)
Were all signed AND ratified. It’s a slow process, but at least we’re going through with it.
Quote: “And no, the US hasn’t experienced the horrors of atomic war. Japan has. What the US has experienced was how atomic weapons can bring a quick, albeit bloody, end to a war.”
<Insert sarcasm> Your right. Americans view the use of atomic weapons simply as a “quick, albeit bloody, end to a war.”
If you believe that, you don’t know Americans and you haven’t been paying attention to what people have been writing. On that note…
Quote:“And what is the use of the US’s nukes? or China’s? or France’s? or Israel’s?”
That is exactly what every single frickin’ person has been saying to you. Jeez…
Au contraire, my dear Grendel, I am an American. Born and bred, thank you very much.
I was trying to point out that American’s still haven’t been on the wrong side of the bomb, just like you pointed out to Asmodean.
What do you mean everyone has been saying “whats the purpose?”
Therein lies the hypocrisy I was trying to illustrate, which you so boldly refuted earlier. I fully understand that there’s no purpose to India’s nukes. I also understand that there’s no purpose to our nukes, or anyone elses.
The hypocrisy is that the US only publicly admits to the problems with everyone else’s nukes.
And, regardless of what happens internally, you apparently missed the point that it is only the outward appearance that matters.
And the outward appearance is simply that the US is pushing nuclear reduction on everyone, while stalling on it at home.
Just flush em down the toilet, if you really think they’re unnecessary. But the mighty American’s dont, do they? Who cares about it happening eventually… what countries like India and Pakistan care about is it isn’t happening now while the US is shoving treaties down their throat now
Oh… and might I point out that the US is trying to weasel out of the ABM treaty?
MilTan
And in case you missed it the first few times I mentioned it, Grendel, I’m an American taking this side for a lark… please avoid the patronizing tone?
Let me guess. You’re one of those people that bought that Patriot Missile crap.
No, it’s not like any country would ever surrender just because two of its cities were wiped out by nuclear bombs. That’s just silly.
The funny thing about nuclear war is that most of the nukes don’t end up in the middle of the ocean, far from densely populated areas. Oh, and let me guess. This explosion had more energy than all the bullets in the world combined. Guess we don’t need to worry about bullets either.
I never realized that city blocks are several kilometers long in India and Pakistan. How interesting.
Yes, anyone who has anything contradictory to say must be wrong. After all, you said it, and how could you be wrong?
Hey wait a sec.Nukes are the fucking deadliest weapon on earth.If you think they’re harmless then you need to stand under a mushroom cloud when they blast one of the damn things.Are you guys advocating that just because America is the most powerful,it can tell other nations what to do and not do it himself.Wait a sec. I thought America was a democratic nation.This sounds like dictatorship to me.
Bye
Zeeshan
MilTan: I appreciate the fact that you’re playing devil’s advocate. You’re very articulate and if anybody were to be forced into that unenviable position, you are certainly one of the more capable.
I think that we are beating a dead horse.
You are caliming that the US is being a hypocrite (“The hypocrisy is that the US only publicly admits to the problems with everyone else’s nukes.”)
I am claiming that, for once, the US really isn’t being a hypocrite. The US has admitted that the buildup of its own nuclear weapons system has created problems. The US has committed itself to building down. Simply because the process of disarmament is stuttering doesn’t mean it is not moving along. CTBT was signed and ratification will occur. To claim that the US is mandating that everyone else disarm while not moving to disarm itself is simply not true.
Most nuclear-established countries are slowly building down or are holding a status quo the exceptions being China, rogue states, France (???), and, of course India/Pakistan.
That’s it for me. Later folks.
PS Trivia. What is the only country to create a full fledged nuclear program and then completely build down and disarm it?
YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT IN SAYING THAT NUKES ARE DANGEROUS.I THINK WE SHOULD LEARN FROM JAPAN.HOWEVER THEIR IS NO WAY OUT.SOON EVERY COUNTRY WILL HAVE ITS OWN SHITLOAD OF NUKES AND THEN ONE DAY THE WORLD WILL BE A MUSHROOM CLOUD.WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH POLITICS THEN?
I think this discussion is over 'cos everyone knows that nukes suck,except of course our friend BORSDA who thinks they are harmless
Bye
Zeeshan
I think a couple of things need to be pointed out here:
First of all, “assured destruction” is just that. We don’t have any guarantee that the two nations in question can field such an arsenal. That just means that the usual style of fighting that has existed up to this time can lead to one helluva mess. And we, the rest of the world, will have to deal with the ramifications of such an exchange–and help what’s left of you out of it, if we so choose. I can guarantee you that should such a conflict ensue–and not spill over the borders and lead to our total destruction, I and people like me will ensure that such a conflict will never occur again. Welcome back to the colonial era, guys–I promise. Possession of nuclear weapons not only endangers both nations physically, it endangers the precious sovereignty they worked so hard to regain.
Second, MilTan is simply offering himself as an advocate of a mindset he understands and I, at least, did not. I’m interested to hear what he says, but this conversation is approaching ad hominem limits because nobody is backing him up. Let’s let the interested parties speak without personal attack.
Third, and finally, I think that we have to accept it as a fact that if a nation chooses to pursue nuclear weapons research, they are not prevented from doing such a thing. The question I am asking is “now that you have them, what do you think you’re going to do with them?” That is the answer I want: are you going to use them, or fall in line with the rest of us and realize that such weapons can never be used without endangering humanity as a whole. So Zeeshan, now that you have The Bomb, just what do you think you are going to gain from it?
Uhhh Zeeshan, I think you meant to say Asmodean thinks they are harmless. Bosda was stridently opposed to nukes. Asmodean on the other hand wants to sprinkle some fallout on his salads.
Oh, and that would be South Africa, if they are to be believed. Like I said before, it is really, really difficult to get rid of nuclear weapons once you have them.
Sorry BORSDA ,oops it was Asmodean all right.Sorry to Borsda.You have my apologies.
You guys are right.Everyone knows this but Nukes are just too damn powerful and India and Pakistan getting them means that the superpowers are not effective at stopping the destructive capability from spreading to the rest of the world.It is horific that 7 nations have extreme destructive power at their command and it is even more horific that more want to get it and eventually will.I know we are all(except our friend Asmodean) on the same side where nukes are concerned.I wish the whole world could be like us dopers.Then maybe i wouldn’t have to worry about becoming radioactive waste.
Bye
Zeeshan
In Pakistan’s case i know it won’t be religious,we are a religiously moderate country and the whole terrorism game is not pakistani.It just helps Pakistan a lot politically.The india/Pakistan conflict is not really as religious as it seems.Religion is only an excuse.The real matter is land disputes and the Pakistani fear of being made a part of india again and Indian determination to make that happen.Its really political and just made religious to gain more support.If a settlement were reached,Pakistan and india could get along fine.I live in Pakistan so i should know how religiously motivated people in my country really are.
I agree with Grendel on this one. I think we’ve essentially stopped getting anywhere with this. This is going to be my last post in this thread (although I will continue to watch with interest).
