Do lobsters feel pain when boiled alive

A few weeks ago, when my wife and I were buying lobster, we were mulling over this very question. Though I’m no scientist and certainly no Cecil I was able to think this through a bit. My conclusion is that animals at that level probably function analogously to those little robots that people make out of old electronics bits, that is, there is a physical reaction to being dumped into the boiling water but probably no thought process along the lines of “oh no, this is the end!”

Does that make cooking lobster any less cruel? I honestly can’t answer that.


MODERATOR COMMENT: This is a thread from 2009, revived 8-2013 in post #61. – CKDH

It would be contrary to species survival if a lobster were incapable of executing some version of the thought: “Tissue damage is occuring, must flee!” Meaning, the critter is capable of sensing “noxious stimulation” and responding in a fashion that supports survival. Yes, I would say that being boiled alive hurts whether you are a bug or a human.

But is it cruel? Of the gazillions of species on this planet, I have to wonder if anything besides humans shows compassion for its food. The tiger doesn’t, the bear doesn’t, the spider doesn’t, the shark doesn’t. In order to survive, a predator has to focus on killing. Killing quickly ensures a successful hunt, that a speedy kill reduces the duration of suffering is just a side effect. Often enough consumption of the prey happens sometime between immobilization and actual death from trauma. In that light, let’s go back to the lobster which is dead within seconds of being dropped into the water. How long does it take the lobster to die when something has bitten it in half? Now who’s cruel?

And of course, supposedly chilling the lobster anesthetizes it without affecting the flavor.
Powers &8^]

I recently cooked two lobsters. My wife had read that splitting them in half with a sharp knife was “less cruel” as all the ganglia are destroyed at once. Naturally, I had to split them. I don’t know whether they died faster or not, or whether it was less unpleasant. Certainly they were still twitching when I cut them up, despite assurances that the movement would subside quickly. I’m pretty sure the lobster was “dead” but it was still unnerving. Next time, we boil.

Actually chilling them will do more than supposedly chilling them.

:wink:

Marvin Minsky who’s probably done as much studying of the mechanics of the mind as anyone on the planet has a theory that I find to be pretty accurate and useful about the nature of pain:

There is no pain without interpretation. For example, let’s say during sex your lover bites your nipple firmly. If you are so inclined, you may interpret the sensation as highly pleasurable. However, if you were sunbathing, and a wild animal ran up and bit you on the nipple with exactly the same force, you might find this highly unpleasant and a painful experience.

Both cases have the exact same stimulus in common. Only the circumstances are changed.

The stimulus only becomes pleasure or pain based on context. In the case of the bite, let’s say that it is firm enough that it causes an involuntary flinch reaction. It’s still pleasure or pain only depending on interpretation.

We, as human beings are capable of assigning importance to these stimuli and are able to interpret them, and call them pain or pleasure.

I’ve run ultra marathons, and suffered what most people would consider intolerable pain. Blisters on my feet have gotten so bad that my toenails fell off, and I thought I got shell caught in my sock. I didn’t realize it was a toenail until I took my sock off and found it and the blood.

Most of us have had experiences where we have been injured, but the circumstances were such that we didn’t feel or notice until later. The fact of the matter was that this pain was felt while it was occuring but other things were more important at the moment and there was no time to assign a context to it. It only became painful later when circumstances allowed a context to be assigned.

While your nerves work the same as anybody else’s what you actually feel as pleasure or pain may vary according to upbringing or experience. Take the case of indifference to cold often seen in animals and feral children. One has to learn to interpret cold as pain and care about it. You just aren’t made that way. In large part, you can train yourself and deliberately choose what is going to be painful and what is not.

I learned this when I got third degree burns on my hands. It was possible to kind of make yourself indifferent to the sensation. It was still there, but it wasn’t quite pain when you refused to assign it that context. It was a hard trick to do, and it was very hard not to assign it that context, and it didn’t always work. But there were times when I was able to pull it off. One does the same trick if one runs ultramarathons.

Pring says it this way:
Now what about those incidents in which some person seems to go beyond what we supposed were the normal bounds of endurance, strength, or tolerance of pain? We like to beleive this demonstrates that the force of will can overrule the physical laws that govern the world. But a person’s ability to persist in circumstances we hadn’t thought were tolerable need not indicate anything supernatural. Since our feelings of pain, depression, exhaustion, and discouragement are themselves mere products of our minds’ activities- and ones that are engineered to warn us before we reach our ultimate limits- we need no extraordinary power of mind over matter to overcome them. It is merely a matter of finding ways to rearrange our priorities.

In any case, what hurts- and even what is “felt” at all- may, in the end, be more dependent on culture than biology. Ask anyone who runs a marathon, or ask your favorite Amazon."
-pg 286

Amazons of course, are legendary for cutting of a breast to aid in shooting a bow.

So, in the case of a lobster, I think we can all agree that they experience a stimulus and they respond to it.

The real question is whether they then have the capability of assigning this stimulus the context of “pain”

Some stimulus may cause a lobster to respond by mating. Another may cause it to move away from excessively hot water. Are these different in quality? Is one good or bad, or are they both equivalent?

My belief is that they are equivalent. What we consider painful is just another sensation with its own programmed reaction. The lobster does not consider mating “pleasant” or being boiled “painful” any more than your computer interprets being shutdown as “painful” or running internet explorer as “pleasure.” The lobster simply does not have the sophistication to make the interpretation and assignation of context or importance.

I believe that is true because I know for a fact that we can alter the intepretation of sensations ourselves at will if we work at it and acquire the skill. We had to learn how to intepret sensations as “pain” in the first place. We can unlearn those interpretations as assign new ones. Or, as Pring says, we can prioritize them out of existence.

We, as a culture have made the assignation that “pain” is a bad thing. We think that we should avoid experiencing and avoid inflicting the experience on others. No other animals that I’m aware of share this conceit. The lion does not worry about the pain it is inflicting on the zebra when it kills it for a meal. It’s simply not important.

Running ultras had given me a relatively high tolerance for pain in all sorts of ways. I’m used to it, and it’s simply not that important to me. I find that I don’t seek to avoid it as much as I did before running. I don’t mind being uncomfortable or hungry, or cold as much as I did before ran so much.

The time when pain or discomfort becomes important is when it’s in a context that I interpret as “damage.” When I tore my rotator cuff I recognized this as a severe injury that would impact my ability to do things that I liked. It was not necessarily more severe a sensation than I might feel in my legs after running 50 miles. The former is important and painful, the latter is not.

So, it’s all about context. So, no. Lobsters do not experience “pain” as you or I think about it, or experience it. They’re not capable of making the context.

I do believe that a lobster can experience an extreme sensation, and assign it a high imprtance. It may not be pain per se, but my gut tells me that all things being equal it’s not nice to go inflicting extreme and important sensation on other beings if you don’t have to even if it’s not “pain.”

So, before I cook a lobster I put it on its back. There is a centerline, almost a seam down it’s underside. I put a knife in this seam with about two inches of blade in contact with the frontmost portion of the lobster. Than I slam my hand down on the back of the blade driving it clean through the head. The lobster twitches once, if that. Than I throw it in the pot.

That way, in case I’m wrong, the question is strictly academic.

Highly recommended:

Just make sure it doesn’t slip the rubber bands and eat the children before you cook it.

I always kinda suspected you were actually G. Gordon Liddy.

Yep, there’s nothing worse than being “conceited” about abdominal surgery and demanding a general anesthetic.

Well, that settles that. :dubious:

Jackmanni:

That was disappointing. I was anticipating some sort of arguable proposition when I saw it was you that replied.

It’s total crap to assert that “pain” is simply a contextualized response to nerve stimuli. Babies exhibit all the same discomfort and unhappiness from episodes that would be painful that adults do, despite having never had a reason to contextualize what they are feeling as “bad.” While an adult might be able to overcome the psychological response to pain, that is not the same as saying that the pain is totally contextual.

The issue remains: does what a lobster feel represent “pain?” That is, does the stimula it receives as a result of flesh-harming actions cause it something analogous to extreme discomfort. We evaluate pain on the basis of what affect it has on our ability to do things like concentrate, take action, etc. Presumably the way to determine if a lobster feels “pain” is to try to determine if the lobster’s functioning is affected in a way similar to the way pain affects us as humans. Of course, how do you decide if a lobster is “concentrating” or not? <chuckle>

Ask it to recite times tables.

Yet they still perform circumcisions without anesthesia precisely because they argue that the baby does not feel “pain.”

Saying something is “total crap” isn’t much of a rebuttal.

Pring says something similar. Pain does effect your ability to concentrate. It is a signal from your body to elevate what is causing the pain to a higher priority, demand more of your attention.

The same effect may occur if you see a beautiful woman walk by. You may also have difficulty concentrating while experiencing orgasm. Are orgasms than painful?

Clearly the component that you describe as “pain” must have some other basis besides ability to concentrate or take action as many other stimuli not painful produce the same response.

It’s been well known for a couple-few decades that babies do feel pain on circumcision – it’s not hard to tell when they squall, writhe, and pass out in response to the procedure. One of the things that kept the practice going even with that was the assumption that babies don’t generally recall the experience, so what the hey. However, after evidence emerged that babies circumcised w/o anaesthesia responded differently to later procedures (like vaccination) than babies who received anaesthesia or analgesia, the interpretation was made that longer-lasting effects were not ruled out. So current neonatal practice tends to favour a combination of analgesia and various types of local anaesthesia. This page provides a decent overview without too much froth.

A co-worker reported that his wife put lobsters in cold water then turned up the heat. They started banging on the sides of the pot. He explained the proper technique to her for future use. He could have just made up the whole story.

Does that mean they were feeling pain? I think they weren’t happy. The real question is how quickly they die when dropped in the boiling water versus the time to register the “discomfort”.

If they want to flee when they sense tissue damage, I don’t see it. When I pop them into boiling water, they just sit there, even if they were kicking and snapping a moment before. This is not to say that I don’t think they feel pain, but I wonder why they don’t thrash when they hit the boiling water.

I have a vague recollection of Jack Lemon stating that the problem was that the lobster tensed up when you dropped in the boling water and that the trick was to drop it in wine so it didn’t care and then boil it.

Mild hijack, but bee venom really makes a spider tear its own legs off? Can somebody elaborate? This is absolutely new to me and I’ve never even heard of anything that would hint at this

When an organism surrenders an appendage, it’s called autotomy. Biology of the Land Crabs - Google Books

Here is the study about spiders. http://www.pnas.org/content/80/11/3382.full.pdf+html

and another one: http://www.americanarachnology.org/JoA_free/JoA_v25_n2/JoA_v25_p202.pdf

In retrospect, I note that “tear off its own leg” probably misdescribes the event. It’s less of a tearing off, and more of a shedding (like a lizard losing its tail). Here is a description of the physiological mechanisms involved. Spider Leg-muscles and the Autotomy Mechanism | Journal of Cell Science | The Company of Biologists

I’m not sure we can decide whether lobsters feel pain without understanding whether lobsters have emotion.

No, we did not have to learn how to interpret sensations as pain. That doesn’t even pass the common sense test. Prick an infant’s foot with a hot needle… does she scream bloody murder, or look at you quizzically trying to figure out whether it’s pain?

Pain and pleasure are not arbitrary perceptions. They are different neural pathways that go to different parts of the brain and produce different reactions. Whether they cause pleasure or suffering can be (to some extent) cognitively conditioned. But eventually there’s a threshold where no amount of masochistic training will allow you to process serious pain as anything other than serious pain. Link to the technical details of how pain is a very specific type of receptor and neural response, just to shut off this fallacious line of reasoning.

With respect to the lobster, what the lobster lacks is a context of suffering. When humans get injured, we anticipate more pain, we look around for threats, we may experience rage, we may experience fear that the pain will increase, we may experience despondence if we cannot avoid it. We have a concept of death and we may fear death itself as a result of extreme pain (or wish for it).

Lobsters experience none of these things. Cognitively they are hardly more complex than a programmable thermostat. Pain is just pain; merely a thing to move away from. So I think it’s definitely true that lobsters experience pain in the technical sense of the word, but they lack any capacity for suffering.