Like I said; revisionist history.
I went to a beyond liberal college in the mid-80s. There definitely was at the time, and it wasn’t that unusual to see people complain about 'women" as a sexist term. In fact when I was grad school we spent sometime trying to replace the term “seminal” (as in a seminal piece of work) as “ovarial”. But we were just being funny, but it was definitely a riff off of that.
However, among mainstream feminists, “women” wasn’t much of an issue. The idea that you must use “female” or you’ll be busted up and down for saying “women” is nonsense.
And even if wymyn and similar ideas are misguided and silly - taking it to the other extreme and using sarcastic, demeaning or otherwise dismissive words when referring to women because you don’t respect some feminists is a little screwed up.
It, in fact, reinforces the point that a lot of men and parts of society still don’t respect women as equals, because they’ve decided to latch onto the most extreme examples as a means of dismissing the ideas and feelings of everyone else. It kind of proves the feminists’ point for them.
Do you think the terms “male” and “female” used as nouns as inherently demeaning and dismissive? From Harry’s mouth, sure, but inherently or generally?
When you hear someone saying “two males were present”, do you think that’s demeaning or dismissive?
Or do you think that only the word “female” is demeaning and dismissive whereas “male” isn’t?
Generally, no. I’m talking about the types of examples that I’ve mentioned in this thread and some of the ones in the OP…things like the monthly “How do I meet females?” threads where guys ask “I’ve never had luck with females, how do I get a female to like me?” These things bother me, because we are not of another species.
No, I don’t. I also don’t get upset about “two females were present” if it’s a description of something like in the news or a police report. But “two females were present at the bar and I wanted to chat one up” comes across as skeevy to me.
No, it’s not the word, it’s the usage. I’d think it would be just as weird is someone were to say “I’m going out to try and meet some males.”
I think a lot of people are using “females” as either misguided political correctness, thinking it’s preferable than using “women”, or as a sign of disrespect, like in the examples in the OP. And I don’t like either usage. Obviously the words have their uses - I am a female engineer, etc.
Does that answer your questions? It’s a particular use of the term that bothers me…and it really bothers me. I don’t really think of myself as a feminist, but in this case, perhaps I am 
Could you use an expression less connotative than “skeevy”?
How do you get that using the term “females” in “How do I meet females?” makes you out to be a different species whereas “How do I meet women?” does not?
You will likely say that using an adjective as a noun makes out that person to only be that adjective. But that isn’t the case. If I say that someone is a local, this does not mean that I think the only attribute he possesses is that of being local. If I say that someone is an academic, I am not saying that this is the only characteristics in him. Should academics and locals get upset that they’re being demeaned because an adjective is being used as a noun? If I say “How do I meet locals?”, am I making them out to be a different species?
I don’t find it SEXIST, just silly. It sounds like something a spambot made abroad by non-English fluent people would say.
ETA: Unless you’re talking about scientific studies, then both “male” and “female” is appropriate when discussing it.
I suppose I could, though I don’t know what you feel “skeevy” implies.
It makes me uncomfortable because it’s a sentence structure that makes me feel like the person saying it doesn’t feel that women are on the same level as they are, as beings. Either they are on some pedestal or they are lower than the person saying it. The usage of the word in a manner that I dislike usually comes from aggressive people or from ones who seem to have very low self-esteem and no social skills. I encounter it most often when there’s a dating/sex/relationship component to the discussion. These things make me wonder how such a person would actually interact with me, and I think I’d be uncomfortable because I’d feel like they wouldn’t be able to do so without making constant references/comments/looks related to my gender and sexuality.
You don’t go out and catch a female so that you can have sex, but that’s kind of an attitude that I associate with this type of phrasing.
Hopefully that came across in my previous paragraph to some extent - that feeling of either being on a pedestal for the simple fact that I’m a woman or that my opinions or feelings can be dismissed for that same reason. The word woman, to me, is applied to a female human. The word female is applied to members of any species, when there is a need to identify the animal’s sex.
I guess, thinking about it, I feel that referring to me as “a female” in these sorts of contexts makes it seem like it focuses on my sex too much, as if to have sex with the men who refer to me that way is my only purpose.
And typing that out, I realize that I’m failing at expressing what I really mean and it might get taken out of context or misunderstood, but I’m struggling with finding the words to try and explain this.
I don’t even know how to address this, as I feel like it’s disconnected to the rest of the topic here. Obviously some adjectives can be used as nouns and vice versa and it isn’t demeaning.
I don’t understand why my opinions on a specific set of words - ones related to sex, identity and sexuality, issues that have legitimate problems in our society - needs to be generalized to all sets of words. That’s illogical and irrelevant and not helpful to the discussion at all.
My opinion on female also has no impact on my opinion of helicopters.
In my opinion, when you use an adjective as a noun, it’s not that you think that’s the only attribute that person possesses, but it’s the only one that you’re currently interested in. If you want to meet locals, the only thing you’re interested in is whether a given person lives nearby. They might also be male, female, young, old, academic, uneducated, or whatever, but you don’t care; those details aren’t relevant to your interest in them. So if you say, “How do I meet females?” it implies to some that the the only thing you’re interested in is their genitalia. This is especially true given that we have a perfectly good, much more commonly-used word, “woman”, which means “female person”. Choosing to say “female” instead of “woman”, then, is basically making a point of taking “person” out of the discussion.
But using an adjective as a noun is not what makes it sound like you’re talking about a different species. That effect is caused by the fact that, as mentioned above, unless you’re in the military, law enforcement, or medicine, the only time you’ll usually hear the words “female” and “male” is in nature shows on PBS, talking about (non-human) animals: “Watch as the male approaches the group of females, waving his tail in a bold courtship display…” So when your average Joe (not Officer Joe, General Joe, or Dr. Joe) says “female” or “male”, the first thing that comes to many peoples’ minds is animals of a different species.
Very well said, Heart of Dorkness. That sums up how I feel about this sort of phrasing much better than I could express.
For the record, it’s not like I get incredibly offended and angry when I hear/read it - it’s more a matter of thinking uggh, a vague feeling of disgust and a desire to not particularly want to know or interact with this person. I might roll my eyes and walk away at the first opportunity. I don’t think I’ve ever actually said anything to anyone, other than in conversations about it like this one online! Any discussion about it pretty much means that I’ll use stronger language to try and express how I feel than the actual level of my reaction to it.
Like saying “illegals” as a noun. Brr.
Thanks for helping me understand how it comes off. I don’t use the term myself.
I understand that in English, the words “female” and “male” have both a zoological and formal/clinical/matter-of-fact meaning. I can see how the former would be offensive. The latter, I don’t see the offensiveness. I can see that it would often be difficult to tell which one is being used although with some people, it’s clear it’s the former.
mnemosyne can attest that in French, “mâle” and “femelle” only have a zoological meaning and they are almost never used to refer to people. For example, I’ve never heard someone say “il y a des femelles là-bas” (“there are females over there”) or “comment je rencontre des femelles?” (“how do I meet females?”). So either French speaking people have much more sophisticated views of men/women or when English speakers use it, it’s often used in the merely formal/clinical sense.
Glad to hear it.
It depends on how it’s used. A lot of things are insulting just because of the way they’re said, and if they’re said insultingly often enough, they become insults. But I don’t think “female” has gotten to that point yet, over a broad range of people.
I just got into a grammatical fight with someone who used the terms “women lawyers” and “women police officers” while in the same piece referring to “male lawyers” and “male police officers.” In that context “female” would have worked better–it’s written, it’s not formal but if you’re using the term as an adjective for one sex, use it for both of them. It hit me like some little kid saying “girl dog” and “boy dog.”
OTOH I once worked with a man who would come in bitching about the fact that he could never get into the bathroom because of all the females he lived with, i.e., one wife, three daughters. I don’t know what else he could have said. The daughters were not women, and the wife was not a girl.
I don’t get it. Any description can be offensive in proper context.
Totally depends on who is using it and how.
As described in the OP, sounds very much meant to offend and indicates a very offensive attitude.
Perhaps it is the more formal/clinical usage in French that makes me more annoyed at the way it gets occasionally used in English.
For sure, it’s all about context - there are a bunch of reasonable and correct ways to use the term “female” without it being offensive at all. The word itself isn’t offensive; it is how it’s used.
I started typing this yesterday and held off, depending on where the thread went, but I figure why not post it anyways…it’s just more explanation of how I feel about the cases described here:
In the OP, the guy in question said things like “females always accuse [me] of things (like not paying child support)” and that he has an 'unlimited supply of females."
In that context, the implication is that to the speaker, women are interchangeable - they are all the same and they can be dumped for another one as soon as one fails to meet his needs (strongly implied sexual needs) or as soon as they start “demanding” money and assistance to raise the children he’s fathered. He views them as an object to use and discard and anything that might tie them together - like his kids - are some sort of trap. It’s a bit like saying that he doesn’t need a particular umbrella, because he works in a factory and can get an unlimited supply of them. They are below him, and any wishes, thoughts, desires or actions that they have that don’t satisfy him are an inconvenience. It’s all just tits and ass, and how dare a woman ask/be anything more. It’s definitely demeaning.
In the “how do I meet females” context it’s actually the other way around - women are above the guy, but in an unreasonable way. These threads (and other than once, I think I’ve only encountered this usage online) usually have a self-pitying element, including phrases like “no female has ever touched me” or “I’ve never been even kissed by a female”. The way I always read those is that these guys have placed women on a pedestal - they are some mythical ideal who, if he can only figure out the magic words to say when he approaches one, will turn into a loving, caring creature who will, as in the first case, satisfy all of his needs, primarily sexual ones. It’s obviously more complicated that just saying “Hi”, because he’s done that before and the woman failed to suck his dick, so what does he say/do to get her to love him? There never seems to be any interest in the woman as an individual - it’s all about how she looks and how desperately he wants her to fuck him. Again, it’s tits and ass, nothing more, because there’s a belief that women are some sort of other who can’t possibly relate to him on any level other than sexual.
In an conversation in GB chat the other night about something else entirely, it was jokingly concluded that one of the most important lessons a teenage boy can learn is “shower more often and women are not of a different species.” “Dress well” got added at some point too.
I like it better than “girl” or “woman.” Do we have words that differentiate men by their age? One thing men don’t call me is pussy, as I’m bending their arm backwards on the bar table.
Yeah, I’m kidding.
I despise that word! It sounds as if the person is talking about the gender of creatures in the wild. Or a scientific specimen or something. Like whatsisface from Wild Kingdom.
“Look out Jim, those females [lions] look grumpy and hungry”. I especially hate it when used by the young thuggettes on reality shows and on facebook etc. “I know he was with another female, I could smell her perfume”. UGH! (almost as bad as “fap”. :D).
If used in a clinical setting it’s not nearly as annoying. For instance on Cops or something “the female suspect” is okay,… after all “the woman suspect” or “the lady suspect” would sound a bit odd.
Right. Which is why it makes someone who isn’t a cop or soldier sound not that smart.