Do moms still give the "men are only after one thing" talk?

[Acsenray]

@epbrown01

Though I don’t get the “including himself” part, the core of my attitude on this (and I suspect manson1972’s and many other men) is a bedrock certainty that women, particularly young women, don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about in this area. From this side of the discussion you all sound like some man talking expertly about childbirth or menstruation. You don’t know. Youcan’t know. And what you think you know is almost laughable.

And here’s the bottom line: unlike the above analogy, wherein you’d expect the man to accept that something is outside his experience, you (the general female “you,” but maybe you specifically) will never accept that this is outside yours just because you don’t have testicles. So this will never be resolved. How about we leave it there?

-epbrown

How about this? I’m a man, and I think this attitude is creepy as fuck. I look suspiciously at any man who “jokes” about protecting his daughter’s virginity or about harming boys who desire to engage in sexual intimacy with them.

A woman—even a young woman—owns her own sexuality. It doesn’t belong to her father. It’s not something that he gets to control, even as a joke.

Yes, young men want to have sex. Of course they do. Young women also want to have sex. What it comes down to is mutual desire and mutual consent. That and sexual health and safety. That’s all that a parent should be talking to his or her children about, children of any sex or gender.

I remember very clearly what it was like being a young man. Yes, I wanted to have sex. But I also wanted a lot of other things. The whole “only one thing” is a dangerous lie.

Yes, there are some young men who will want to have sex with someone and then want to have nothing more to do with them. The answer to that is to teach both boys and girls about understanding their own desires and their own agency in interpersonal relationships.

And also, we need to kill the stigma that comes with having sex with the wrong person. If a young woman decides that she wants to have sex with someone, and has sex with someone, and then later decides or discovers that this was a person behaving selfishly or is otherwise not someone she wants to be involved with, then that’s okay.

You didn’t waste yourself or ruin yourself or damage yourself by having sex with someone who turned out to be a jerk later. That’s part of the whole ethos of treating female virginity as a commodity. It’s not. Virginity or chastity is not a possession, it’ isn’t something of value. If you decided of your own free will to have sex with someone and then decided that that someone is no good, you haven’t lost anything, you haven’t devalued yourself.

[Urbanredneck]

I think older brothers make a strong impression than fathers. Especially if the brother goes to the same school or otherwise knows the potential boyfriend.

Now the question is would an older sister be as protective of a younger brother?

[Bullitt]

@Urbanredneck

I think older brothers make a strong impression than fathers. Especially if the brother goes to the same school or otherwise knows the potential boyfriend.

Now the question is would an older sister be as protective of a younger brother?

Older brothers are part of “the village” raising the sister, surely. But fathers, don’t underestimate your abilities to be a loving and supportive presence in your kids’ lives. I learned this one the hard way.
@DesertDog: whoosh.

[Voyager]

@Bullitt

@DesertDog: whoosh.

It might have been a whoosh, but I think you were right. It sounds a lot like the proposition is change of ownership. (Which if the father “gave away” the bride happened during the wedding.
Not to mention the implication that the woman saved herself for marriage, and that having sex while deeply involved with the guy was kind of equivalent to a boy hitting on her during the first date or something.
If either of my daughters called me in a similar situation I would have said “what the hell are you thinking?” Not that it was the first time for either. They’re not dumb.

[Maastricht]

My son is 10. We already had the talk about what to do if you stumble on 18+ stuff on the 'Net. Also what to do if a stranger on the net aks you to do whatever: rule is ask us his parents, first.

My son got a phone this year, so I in one or two years I should have the talk about sexting.

He’s not in puberty yet, so when I tell him - as it comes up- about the interest other people have in sex, he mostly finds that gross and a bit weird. But he has no reason to doubt me and I hope he will come with stories to us. I already demonstrated a condom over a cucumber, as he had heard about that in a Youtube vid and wantd to know what was meant.

Two months ago he asked me to invite a girl for a playdate he had a cush on; I said I would help him compose a note, but that I wouldn’t give it to the admiree, he wold have to do that himself.

My son also has had girl friends since age six. For his best girl friend, he has had some romantic interest but when that was not (always) welcome he returned to a somewhat ambiguous relationship with her. Mostly they’re just friends and he handles it well when Meike is in love with someone else.

When hormones get raging, I will have the talk about enthusiastic consent with him, but I doubt it will be a problem with him.

Also he will get a lock on his bedroom door and instructions on where to leave certain- ehm… used… tissues.

[nearwildheaven]

@Acsenray

Yes, young men want to have sex. Of course they do. Young women also want to have sex. What it comes down to is mutual desire and mutual consent. That and sexual health and safety. That’s all that a parent should be talking to his or her children about, children of any sex or gender.

I remember very clearly what it was like being a young man. Yes, I wanted to have sex. But I also wanted a lot of other things. The whole “only one thing” is a dangerous lie.

Yes, there are some young men who will want to have sex with someone and then want to have nothing more to do with them. The answer to that is to teach both boys and girls about understanding their own desires and their own agency in interpersonal relationships.

And also, we need to kill the stigma that comes with having sex with the wrong person. If a young woman decides that she wants to have sex with someone, and has sex with someone, and then later decides or discovers that this was a person behaving selfishly or is otherwise not someone she wants to be involved with, then that’s okay.

You didn’t waste yourself or ruin yourself or damage yourself by having sex with someone who turned out to be a jerk later. That’s part of the whole ethos of treating female virginity as a commodity. It’s not. Virginity or chastity is not a possession, it’ isn’t something of value. If you decided of your own free will to have sex with someone and then decided that that someone is no good, you haven’t lost anything, you haven’t devalued yourself.

One thing kids need to know is that if their date says, “I’m going to dump you if you don’t have sex with me” (more likely to be said by boys) or “I’m going to tell everyone you’re gay if you don’t have sex with me” (more likely to be said by girls), the proper way to address this is “Good-bye!” As for the latter, I realize it’s hard for teenagers to believe this in the moment, but the kids who know (usually) him know if it’s true or not, and the kids who don’t know him don’t care.

The first sentence in the above paragraph applies to people who are no longer teenagers as well.

[BigT]

@epbrown01

Though I don’t get the “including himself” part, the core of my attitude on this (and I suspect manson1972’s and many other men) is a bedrock certainty that women, particularly young women, don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about in this area. From this side of the discussion you all sound like some man talking expertly about childbirth or menstruation. You don’t know. Youcan’t know. And what you think you know is almost laughable.

And here’s the bottom line: unlike the above analogy, wherein you’d expect the man to accept that something is outside his experience, you (the general female “you,” but maybe you specifically) will never accept that this is outside yours just because you don’t have testicles. So this will never be resolved. How about we leave it there?

-epbrown

I’d argue you’re talking about yourself. Nava is a woman. She is the one who knows what it’s like to have been a teenage girl, and exactly what would and would not have been helpful. You are the one insisting that you as a man know better than women what is best for them.

Not that gender matters at all when understanding that threatening violence towards someone is not okay. You gonna follow through? I’m pretty sure the police would love that.

As a guy, I understand that desire to want to defend those you love, even if it gets physical. But threatening violence is just ridiculous.

Sure, talk to the boyfriend, and lay out what is expected of him. Just as you’ve also talked to your daughter so she knows what’s expected of her. And let your daughter know that you’re there for her and will come to her aid if she needs you.

But don’t pull that male bravado crap. Other people are saying it sounds creepy, but I’ll go one step further: it makes makes the father sound violent. And then the boy might be worried that he abuses his daughter. I know I would have thought so back then, thanks to all those anti-abuse PSAs.

[puzzlegal]

@Slash1972

How does warning suitors not to step over the line equate to “our fathers not respecting us”?

It depends what line you are warning them of.

If you are simply warning them that you will back up your daughter, and they better not do anything she doesn’t want them to do, then you are, perhaps, being proactively aggressive, but it’s not creepy. If you assume that you know your daughter won’t do “x”, or you assume that the boy needs YOUR permission (not hers), then that’s creepy, and detracts from her agency.

That being said, I told my kids that it’s illegal to have sex under age 18 in this state, and if they love someone, they will wait until both are 18 so no one risks legal trouble. Of course, it’s not illegal to make out, and my son certainly did some of that before he was 18.

[postpic200]

@Tzigone

Yes, incredibly. It’s sexist and demeaning by indicating you control your daughter’s sexual behavior instead of her controlling it and that your consent matters more than hers. Also a double standard when you don’t have the same concerns about consensual sexual behavior that your sons choose to engage in and don’t similarly threaten the son’s dates for a willingness or desire to engage in consensual sexual behavior.

I hate to be the one who’s telling you this, but there is a difference between girls and boys and the consequences of them having sex is different. In many cases the parents of the girl are far more concerned about her sexuality then a boy’s. A boy can father a child and could basically walk away, and other than paying child support at some time, he can get on with his life as if nothing really happened. With a girl pregnancy does affect her whole life, from finishing school, going to college, starting a career, etc. and if she decided to have an abortion, that is something she had to go through and that too has an effect on her.

Let’s be truthful here, while it may be sexist and demeaning, the odds of a boy coming home pregnant is 0, and while boy might have to pay child support, the whole pregnancy, child birth, falls on the girl. Then there’s raising the child which in many cases falls on the girl’s family. It is generally the girl’s family who must deal with the pregnancy and ends up paying for it.

"These cases, commonly called “minor-mother” cases, are automatically referred to the state child support enforcement agency by the welfare department. When the agency receives a minor-mother referral, it begins legal proceedings against three parties: the father of the minor-mother, the mother of the minor-mother, and the father of the minor-mother’s child. Because the parents of minor-mothers are legally responsible to support their daughters until emancipation, they must pay child support for their minor-mother daughters. "

Teenage Parents – Family Laws

So, the parents of the girl are responsible until the girl reaches 18, and while the parents of the boy may have to pay child support until the boy is 18, the burden of raising the child generally falls on the girl and her parents.

Yes, as a teen I had dads basically tell me touch my daughter and die. Which didn’t just mean, don’t have sex, it meant that if you hurt my daughter in anyway you will pay. Was it sexist and demeaning, maybe, but I and the teen boys I knew took as setting the ground rules for BOTH of us.

[DesertDog]

@Voyager

If either of my daughters called me in a similar situation I would have said “what the hell are you thinking?”

Well, I am not a father of daughters (or anyone else) much less back then (I was about ten) but if I were and I had done the dime trick with her, that might have been my initial thought on receiving such a call but I hope the penny would drop. I would bust out laughing and say something like, “You and Larry go right ahead and do whatever you want – and no, I don’t need to know the details.”

I guess my sense of humor is different than yours.

[Acsenray]

@postpic200

I hate to be the one who’s telling you this, but there is a difference between girls and boys and the consequences of them having sex is different. In many cases the parents of the girl are far more concerned about her sexuality then a boy’s. A boy can father a child and could basically walk away, and other than paying child support at some time, he can get on with his life as if nothing really happened. With a girl pregnancy does affect her whole life, from finishing school, going to college, starting a career, etc. and if she decided to have an abortion, that is something she had to go through and that too has an effect on her.

Let’s be truthful here, while it may be sexist and demeaning, the odds of a boy coming home pregnant is 0, and while boy might have to pay child support, the whole pregnancy, child birth, falls on the girl. Then there’s raising the child which in many cases falls on the girl’s family. It is generally the girl’s family who must deal with the pregnancy and ends up paying for it.

"These cases, commonly called “minor-mother” cases, are automatically referred to the state child support enforcement agency by the welfare department. When the agency receives a minor-mother referral, it begins legal proceedings against three parties: the father of the minor-mother, the mother of the minor-mother, and the father of the minor-mother’s child. Because the parents of minor-mothers are legally responsible to support their daughters until emancipation, they must pay child support for their minor-mother daughters. "

Teenage Parents – Family Laws

So, the parents of the girl are responsible until the girl reaches 18, and while the parents of the boy may have to pay child support until the boy is 18, the burden of raising the child generally falls on the girl and her parents.

Yes, as a teen I had dads basically tell me touch my daughter and die. Which didn’t just mean, don’t have sex, it meant that if you hurt my daughter in anyway you will pay. Was it sexist and demeaning, maybe, but I and the teen boys I knew took as setting the ground rules for BOTH of us.

This is basically a pile of nonsense. If parents are concerned about preventing their daughters from having unintended pregnancies then the last century of history is proven that what they should be ensuring is that their children are properly educated and adequate access to sexual health services.

Where young people have proper sex education and access to birth control, teen pregnancy is practically nonexistent. Where parents rely on physically threatenening their daigherters’ suitors, teen pregnancy is rampant.

[Voyager]

@Acsenray

This is basically a pile of nonsense. If parents are concerned about preventing their daughters from having unintended pregnancies then the last century of history is proven that what they should be ensuring is that their children are properly educated and adequate access to sexual health services.

Where young people have proper sex education and access to birth control, teen pregnancy is practically nonexistent. Where parents rely on physically threatenening their daigherters’ suitors, teen pregnancy is rampant.

As most fathers of teenage daughters know, it is also likely to be counterproductive. Do the threatening bit to a guy she has feelings for and she might well be more likely to have sex just to show you.
Given how easy it is for women in my family to get pregnant, I’m sure glad they all believed in birth control until a pregnancy was desired.

[puzzlegal]

@postpic200

I hate to be the one who’s telling you this, but there is a difference between girls and boys and the consequences of them having sex is different. In many cases the parents of the girl are far more concerned about her sexuality then a boy’s. A boy can father a child and could basically walk away, and other than paying child support…

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but at the moment, the law favors the girl. She can chose to abort, and just walk away. She can give the child up for adoption. But if SHE decides to keep the baby, the boy is on the hook for child support for 18 years, and there’s nothing he can do about.

[Pantastic]

@BigT

Not that gender matters at all when understanding that threatening violence towards someone is not okay. You gonna follow through? I’m pretty sure the police would love that.

That’s another thing I wonder about these adult men who like threatening to injure or kill young boys, since they must be picking or choosing which stereotypes about teenagers to believe. I mean, it’s actually well-documented that teenagers aren’t good at evaluating the consequences of decision, and tend not to appreciate their own mortality, but they’re expecting a fairly empty threat to work. What stops the kid from just figuring “I can take that old psycho,” “That loud old coot will never follow through”, or “He’ll never find out?”. That’s more in line with the stereotypical mindset of the horny kid who can’t think of anything but getting laid than the “he will coldy consider that I might attack him as a consequnce” idea. If the kid is smarter, he might realize that most 20th century court systems frown on violence against children a lot more than they do consensual sexual activity or even rape, don’t believe the ‘if you even look at my daughter funny it’s OK if I kill you’ narrative, and that an adult committing multiple violent felonies against a child is setting himself up for a lot of problems. It’s even worse if the kid has well-off parents, good luck when you turn up in court to find out that you’ve just committed felony assault against the son of the judge’s best golfing buddy who also funded the DA’s last reelection campaign.

[Pantastic]

@epbrown01

And here’s the bottom line: unlike the above analogy, wherein you’d expect the man to accept that something is outside his experience, you (the general female “you,” but maybe you specifically) will never accept that this is outside yours just because you don’t have testicles. So this will never be resolved. How about we leave it there?

FYI, I have a lovely set of testicles and I think that all of the ‘pro-threat’ posters as well as the ‘boys are just looking for one thing’ posters are repeating tired stereotypes not based in reality.

[Velocity]

@postpic200

I hate to be the one who’s telling you this, but there is a difference between girls and boys and the consequences of them having sex is different. In many cases the parents of the girl are far more concerned about her sexuality then a boy’s. A boy can father a child and could basically walk away, and other than paying child support at some time, he can get on with his life as if nothing really happened. With a girl pregnancy does affect her whole life, from finishing school, going to college, starting a career, etc. and if she decided to have an abortion, that is something she had to go through and that too has an effect on her.

Let’s be truthful here, while it may be sexist and demeaning, the odds of a boy coming home pregnant is 0, and while boy might have to pay child support, the whole pregnancy, child birth, falls on the girl. Then there’s raising the child which in many cases falls on the girl’s family. It is generally the girl’s family who must deal with the pregnancy and ends up paying for it.

"These cases, commonly called “minor-mother” cases, are automatically referred to the state child support enforcement agency by the welfare department. When the agency receives a minor-mother referral, it begins legal proceedings against three parties: the father of the minor-mother, the mother of the minor-mother, and the father of the minor-mother’s child. Because the parents of minor-mothers are legally responsible to support their daughters until emancipation, they must pay child support for their minor-mother daughters. "

Teenage Parents – Family Laws

So, the parents of the girl are responsible until the girl reaches 18, and while the parents of the boy may have to pay child support until the boy is 18, the burden of raising the child generally falls on the girl and her parents.

Yes, as a teen I had dads basically tell me touch my daughter and die. Which didn’t just mean, don’t have sex, it meant that if you hurt my daughter in anyway you will pay. Was it sexist and demeaning, maybe, but I and the teen boys I knew took as setting the ground rules for BOTH of us.

Dr. James Dobson addressed this in one of his books when someone asked why there was a double standard between the two genders when it came to sleeping around. His response was that there ought not to be a double standard but that one reason for it was that there was/is much more practical consequence for a woman to suffer than men - pregnancy, injury, feeling used, etc. and hence that was why parents would be more alarmed about a daughter being promiscuous than a son.

[nearwildheaven]

@puzzlegal

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but at the moment, the law favors the girl. She can chose to abort, and just walk away. She can give the child up for adoption. But if SHE decides to keep the baby, the boy is on the hook for child support for 18 years, and there’s nothing he can do about.

Actually, there is. He can just plain old not pay, or sign away his parental rights, and he’s off the hook.

Financially, anyway. Societally may be another story, although like any other dysfunction, there are definitely families where this kind of thing is not condemned.

[Bullitt]

@Pantastic

FYI, I have a lovely set of testicles and I think that all of the ‘pro-threat’ posters as well as the ‘boys are just looking for one thing’ posters are repeating tired stereotypes not based in reality.

There are certainly exceptions, but usually, many young boys (and into college years) are horny and want to score.

[Shodan]

@Pantastic

“Not very far” is an often believed myth, but it’s clearly a myth. If teen sex in the 1960s was so rare, why was the teen pregnancy rate double what it is now back in the pure, clean days of 1960 when allegedly none of this sex was going on?

Teen Pregnancy: Trends And Lessons Learned | Guttmacher Institute
http://shawneehistory.tripod.com/12.pdf

Your cite answers the question -

Unmarried childbearing. Even though teen childbearing overall has declined steeply over the last half-century, the proportion of all teen births that are nonmarital has increased equally dramatically, from 13% in 1950 to 79% in 2000 (see chart). Two factors are at play. The first is that marriage in the teen years, which was not uncommon in the 1950s, has by now become quite rare. (By the mid-1990s, the typical age of first marriage in the United States had risen to just over 25 for women and 27 for men.) The second is that this trend has extended to pregnant teens as well: In contrast to the days of the “shotgun marriage,” very few teens who become pregnant nowadays marry before their baby is born.

And the idea that teenage girls did not have intercourse in the 1960s isn’t a myth (cite).

Regards,
Shodan

[Filbert]

@nearwildheaven

Actually, there is. He can just plain old not pay, or sign away his parental rights, and he’s off the hook.

Financially, anyway. Societally may be another story, although like any other dysfunction, there are definitely families where this kind of thing is not condemned.

And women can do that too. Sure, walking away before birth means abortion, which they may not want to do, but a schoolfriend was, as a few months old baby, bought round to her teenage Dad’s house for a visit by her teenage Mother, who promptly disappeared with her new boyfriend and never came back.

Might be rarer, but it does happen.