Do my children deserve help by affirmative action?

Returning to the OP’s question, I believe that no, your children won’t deserve affermative action. Unfortunately, it’s a program of discrimination the way it runs now, and it frequently benefits people who don’t need any help and admits unqualified people to schools. In short, it’s a badly broken program.

On the other hand, if you put on your selfish hat, why not take advantage of every program you can to help your kids? I know this is an ethical and moral dilemma, not a legal one, and altruism figures heavily. You’ll want your kids to succeed, of course. Will you want it enough to let them potentially bump more qualified students from school? Will they feel better about themselves if they do it without help?

I’m one of those that refuses to answer racial questions of any kind on application forms and survey forms, as I believe they are the basis for discrimination both for and against various groups. I also don’t feel that all people of any given race are equivalent (my ancestors were the oppressed white guys, doggone it!). I’d rather people evaluating the forms didn’t know my race or gender.

Oh, and Happy Wanderer? Please get off my side in this argument. You’re making everybody who doesn’t like affirmative action look foolish.

And I can’t resist- “your argument is deeply flawed” is ok
“your argument is silly and stupid” is not ok.

Ok.

Ok, I’ll argue the other side! Affirmitave action is desperately needed because of people like me who hate the brown/black/women folk. I spend my waking hours trying to oppress people. It is what I live for! I wouldn’t hire a woman or a coon unless the government required it, so you damn well better keep us crackers in line. We form the majority and our agenda is to keep white males on top of things, and the only way you can stop us it through legislation that controls our public and private transactions. Yay JESSE JACKSON!

You must be Irish!

/half Irish
//half German
///all drunk

And y’know, mods, I can’t help but think that this remark was directed at me. I am not racially insensitive, I am not boneheaded, and I am barely a classmate (well, back when I was in school).

I am white (german/irish) but I live in a hispanic neigborhood, not because I cannot afford to live elsewhere, but becasue this is where my friends are. For many years, my best friend was a nigerian. He went back to fight in Nigeria’s civil war and I never heard from him again. I miss him to this day. So if you think I am a racist, think again. I hate all races equally, including my own. No one is innocent in the bloodbath called history. I just think it is time to move the fark on. The last racists in the United States are dying, or fading into meaninglessness. The future is the United Colors of Benneton. The current generation coming up will wonder what all the fuss was about. Thank God.

Well, since you don’t identify with any of those descriptions (except for “ignorant”; noticed you didn’t balk at that one), then why in the hell do you think I was referring to you?

So some of your best friends are black, huh?

I never said this only applies to minorities, and never would.

Daddy went to Yale, and was reasonably well off. I never thought of applying to the school myself, as Yaleies are a bunch of snoots. :smiley:

WTF?

I could not agree with you more. A lot of my classmates in High School were in the yearbook as being in the “Chess Club” the “Latin Club” the “Bike Club” etc. All freaking phoney baloney. I rode 20 miles every day before class, and a hundred miles every Saturday and Sunday. About the only safe place to ride from my neighborhood of Hyde Park on the south side of Chicago was up the lakefront to downtown and the north side. I never saw one member of the bike club on the lakefront. I asked one of the members “when are you guys going to ride, I would like to go with you.” “Um, well we ride sometimes, we’ll let you know.” “What kind of bike do you ride?” “Um, a ten speed?” So I agree about all that.

High School grades and SAT scores are the strongest indicator for success in post secondary education. What else should they use?

Is it my responsibility to solve all the world’s problems before I take a stand on something? I agree with you about much of this but it has nothing to do with AA. These are other problems, and I agree that they are problems. Just because I don’t elaborate on them in this thread doesn’t mean that I am disingenuous.

Are you from India? I agree with a meritocracy, which is what you are proposing. How is this different from the SAT?

Just like it should be here. Is there AA in your country?

No, ONE of my freinds is black. Although now he is most likeley dead. Defending his folks from those who would steal what his family worked for. Ever hear of the Yoruba tribe? Didn’t think so. Of course, if a conservative has a black friend it is a token, but if Bill Clinton has a black friend, he is a soul brother.

I prefer to let my posts speak for themselves in that regard. Pity that you must rely on the same tactic, because it puts you at a disadvantage. Hows bout some peeeps out there respond to the substance of my comments and dispense with the ad-hominem. I apologize for resorting to it previously, but a conservative can feel a little beaten up in this place dedicated to “fighting ignorance”.

/Probably reading Cecil before you were born
//at leat “he” isn’t the knee jerk lib that is so common here

High school scores are a bad indicator if the level of curriculum and the available money differ so widely from High School to High School. There is no accepted, standardized curriculum that High School graduates have to know.

As for SAT: it’s not offered and encouraged and mandatory trained for at every school, and it’s rote learning, not thinking or problem solving, so I consider them bad choices for actual academic performance.

No, I’m from Germany. And you didn’t say anything about a “meritocracy”, you only said you were against AA. Getting rid of AA doesn’t equal a meritocracy, if you don’t change all the other factors I described.

NO, because, as I’ve tried to explain, students are chosen only on their grades, which are based on standardized curricula. There’s no difference between somebody who goes to school in the neck of the woods, or the south side of town, and the son of a rich doctor, when it comes to admission into university.

We DO, however, have programs to encourage more women into the natural science fields. Experiments have shown that seperating the boys and the girls in High School for the natural sciences classes allows the girls to perform better - when they aren’t put down all the time by the boys, or time is lost due to the boys’ rowdiness. Similar, programs at the Universities try to encourage women to consider a technical career as option (that doesn’t mean forcing them in.)

I don’t expect you to understand or believe this, or change your mind; but maybe some of the other dopers find the info interesting. (I found the findings in the other posts very interesting, about who really benefits from AA etc.)

You don’t know the meaning of meritocracy, evidently.

Well, I am glad that in Germany all the german youth are taught exactly the same thing in every town and hamlet by centalized government decree. I am sure this could never lead to problems…

In the United States, individual school districts have the right and responsibility to educate children in a manner that is tailored to the parent’s wishes. Education is considered a local priority, or will be until Hillary makes “it take a village” meaning that the feds control every text and question on a form.

Lots of women take “Natural Science” here as well.

As for SAT’s, you have obviously never taken one. There are math problems, english problems, logic problems etc. All require thinking, not rote learning.

So continue with your German system. I used to be a Volkswagen fanatic, but I have been burned too many times. You guys can’t engineer your way out of a paper bag anymore. Have you noticed that your cars are now THE LEAST RELIABLE CARS ON THE PLANET? Thanks for making Chrysler even worse than before. How did you geniuses decide to buy our crappiest car company? How did you make it worse?

Affirmative action does this by skewing the economic incentives.

I am supportive of people, regardless of gender or race or religious delusion being successful in the mercantile/scientific world. The more the merrier. I just don’t feel it is a proper role of the government to decide who is to be the benificiaries of largesse. This sword can cut both ways. Remember, Bush said “I am the Decider!” As a lukewarm Republican who is really a Libertarian, I don’t want the government deciding anything. AA is the government deciding. What if the fundies take over? Burkas for you, beeyotch! Or at least no birth control. Leave them the heck out of it.

I once had an HR person explain thier diversity policy to me about so many words…i.e. “We only consider race/gender/etc. when all else is equal.”

My response:

“So exactly how much better at my job than a black woman do I need to be to get the promotion?”

That was during the “first day on the job indoctrination”…Both of us should have paid more attention, because it foreshadowed exactly how badly I fit into that organization.

Your children deserve whatever the law allows them. If that’s affirmative action in their favor, what’s the beef?

And let’s confuse the issue with saying, “Asians don’t need AA.” Just a couple of years ago, in one of the Asian Studies classes I took at university, it was demonstrated quite clearly that there are quite a number of subgroups of Asian-Americans who actually do need AA to overcome the problems of the past–and the current problems they’re facing.

What problems are those? (especially the ‘current’ ones)

I don’t know if it’s what Monty was getting at, but the Hmong come to mind as an example of an Asian-American group that is relatively recent in terms of immigration. Their current issues include things that are traditional barriers to higher education – poverty itself in terms of ability to pay tuition, the pressure on young adults to contribute to family resources by entering the workforce without any college, and attending primary and secondary schools in poor school districts. Not to slam the schools – those people are doing God’s work no doubt, but the funds just aren’t competitive with districts in higher income areas.

Culture Shock, Poverty Plague Hmong in Michigan

Grants Target Working Poor, Hmong Immigrants

I want to clairfy a point about why we don’t have AA in my country (Germany): after the experiences of the Nazi times, any question or distinction about race is completly out of the question. I was very surprised when I saw that in the US, patient forms in the hospital/at the doctors list not only age and gender (which are important), but also “white caucasian” or similar, because I couldn’tu nderstand what matter that info would play in medical treatment.

We also don’t have many blacks or Asians; our largest minority group are the Turks and people of Turkish descent. In the 60s, we called for Italian and Turkish people from poor areas to come to Germany and work here (similar, I think, to Mexicans coming to the Southern US?) Because the govt. expected the workers to leave after some years - when there was no longer a need for them - and insisted on “Germany is no immigration country”, no efforts at integration were made. But the workers stayed, and brought their families, and new children were born. Now we have 4 to 5 mil. people who are discriminated against in daily life (because they are recognizable by their looks and names), not all of whom speak German, many of whom have a low-quality education. Under the threat of terrorism, the govt. has finally decided to do sth. about this, and has started german language classes in primary school. However, parents don’t need to apply for them - the children are judged indivdually on how good their command is, and how much help they need.

Similarly, there is a certain percentage of pupils each year, when leaving primary school, that don’t enter Advanced High School or Practical High School, but only the Common High School. A high percentage, but not all, of these pupils are foreigners, others are german children coming from poor backgrounds. These kids are considered by society, and see themselves, as complete loosers - too dumb for the better High Schools, without any hope or aim in life. Without hope, they don’t put in an effort to learn, and teachers have to battle with disciplinaray problems. After finishing school, most of them will have trouble finding a job, leading to the next generation of poverty and hopelessness. To break this circle, it’s important to strengthen the children (also, to have more and specially trained teachers, better materials, etc.). Some parents don’t care how badly their children perform at school; other parents are overwhelmed and helpless by the disclipine problems. So special measureas aimed at these groups of children (and their parents) are important and necessary; but they don’t differentiate to race, and aren’t called AA.

As to the OP: If your children don’t check the box for race on their application, that would be noble, but it wouldn’t change the discrimnation against them based on their skin colour (if they happen to look American Indian), and the stereotpyes and prejudices about them, and it won’t stop the (wrong in the first place) gathering of data based on race. Besides, if they go to the same High School your wife went to, they would still have to fight with the bad reputation of this school, yes?

I also agree with the doper who said that being a visible Native American (visible on paper by checking the box) might encourage others to come to the college your children will be at.(From the little I’ve seen and read about the first black children in integrated schools, it was hell for them, and the fact that there were at least a few others helped a tiny bit. And the prejudices against these children weren’t related to the income of their parents.)

If you feel undeserving of the money, then you can always set up a fund to sponsor another Native American who can’t go because of funds. Or organize a study circle to encourage more students from your (future) children’s High School to go in the first place.

That’s exactly what I was thinking about, delphica.

Based on your experience with one German car company, you’ve decided that constanze and 82 million other Germans are lousy engineers. Lovely.

I don’t fill in race on surveys or job applications, but I think it is important on medical forms, as there are diseases which affect different racial groups differently. I am happy to provide any information that can help my doctor to make a correct diagnoses.

But if there are no human races (as Uncle Cecil has explained, and as several threads have quite knowledgeably explained), then how can this help? If you come from an area or group with higher-than-usual forms of sickness (Tay-Sachs-disease among certain European Jews because of Ghetto living; sickle-cell-anemia among certain groups in Africa because of the resistance against maleria in the aA form), then yes, this info is helpful. But the paramedic taking one look at you and writing “white caucasian” on his form - how does that help the doctor? If you tell the doctor in person that you have never been farther than 200 miles from your Idaho farm, that rules out some exotic diseases; if you personally tell your doctor that you come from a small commune that started with 10 families, he might look for inbreeding, but both fall under “white caucasian”.