Not in ireland either. We make some people swear in when they have to do a job like be president or a judge. Even that’s pretty innocuous.
The whole flag thing looks creepy - like behaviour in some fascist country. Folks, it’s just a bit of cloth.
For what it’s worth, having grown up and been schooled in the US, I recall saying the pledge from time to time (on special occasions, perhaps), but never as a daily ritual. There may be local school system rules that require it as part of a daily routine (though, as has been noted, even there it is nominally voluntary), but such rules are by no means universal, and certainly not federally mandated.
200+ years makes the US a younger nation? Do you know why African nations call the 20th century a short one? Or the GUS states? Ex-Yugoslavia?
Also, the pledge is much younger than the US. (I especially like this
Not to mention the later addition of “under God”.
As for the immigrants - they take the pledge when they become citizens, right? Is once not enough? Is the trauma of Benedict Arnold switching sides so deeply embedded that it needs constant repetition?
And a lot of countries don’t have “something” that unites the ethniticities, esp. not a ritual for underage children, double esp. not a ritual that the children in question don’t understand because of their age and the speed with which it’s rattled off.
It’s a rather superstitious idea that saying magic words will unite people, instead of shared ideas, belief in the country and its institutions, faith in the people at the top and the neighbours around them; common cultural and sports activities that the majority shares…
I’m not a fan of the Pledge but I will say that it’s not forced on every student for 12 years by any means. I graduated in 1997 but I can’t remember the last time I said the pledge - certainly not in high school and probably not in middle school either.
Hell, when I was growing up I had to say 2 pledges! I had to say the standard US pledge and then the pledge to the Texas flag. “Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one and indivisible.”
According to this site, schools are required to include the pledge in 36 states. In a further six, schools have the option to require students to recite the pledge. That seems to be badly worded as in these “optional” states, the students can generally choose to opt out, so they are not really “required” to say the pledge. I assume it means that in these states the school can choose to recite the pledge but students may opt out.
Of the 36 states where schools must recite the pledge, there are six where students do not have the option to opt out: IL, MD, MA, NJ, TN, TX.
constanze, I want to respond to you, but I don’t want you to think I’m defending the pledge—I stopped saying it when I was about 9, and I no longer live in America anyway.
The US is a “new” nation in the sense that the people at its core in the late eighteenth century were split from the United Kingdom. Any folkloric or ethnic customs would have been either shared with the British, or invented within recent memory. There was no American ethnicity before 1607, and you can argue for a much later date than that. You certainly couldn’t say that about Croatian ethnicity, even though the modern nation-state of Croatia is more recent.
I object to your use of “superstitious” on technical grounds, but you’re not entirely wrong. The pledge is a custom, and it’s also a ritual. It works to unite people by giving them a common experience to draw upon. Repetition also reinforces the power of the symbol, in this case the flag.
I agree with you that other things work better, especially if they arise organically, and I agree that other things are preferable for a variety of reasons. I also share your dislike of institutions forcing children to undergo such rituals. There is a degree to which it works, is all, and most Americans seem to like it enough to perpetuate it. If you want to open up a pit thread about the creepier aspects of American patriotism, go ahead.
I’m reminded of the Simpsons episode where the family vacations at a beach, and Lisa becomes one of the cool kids. It’s the Fourth of July, and one of her new friends complains that his father made him get up at dawn to take a “loyalty oath.”
FWIW, the penalty for a public school teacher in Massachusetts not leading the Pledge of Allegiance is “a fine of not more than five dollars” every 2 weeks. cite.
So, no other countries pledge allegiance to the United States??!!:eek:
Yep. I graduated in 1982 and never heard it up until then. It was only after my kids were in school and we visited the classroom that I heard it. A true WTF? moment I tell you what. I was born in Texas and have lived here all my life and the Texas pledge creeps me right out.
Yeah. Not disputing the statutes in the cite, but the statute was roundly ignored in every school I attended and I’m not aware than anyone ever cared either way.
Interesting, if not surprising, that the rather direct question in the OP has turned into a thread about patriotism-bordering-on-fascism in the US. Hasn’t really been a problem in my experience, but maybe I’m just lucky.
I graduated high school in 2003 and only some elementary school teachers had it on occasion, and maybe a handful of times in highschool in public schools. I think it’s definitely fading from fashion.
Also no one “forces” you to do it, I stood politely but refused to put my hand over my heart or recite it around fifth grade, and I only ever had one teacher question me over it.
I could see it being a bigger deal in rural red states though.
Heh. That’s esp. funny, given the recurring question of whether or not Texas can or should split up in to five states: Can Texas Still Split Into Five States? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board
So since the eighteenth century, no American ethnicity has developed? Seriously? Moreover, the US seemed to do fine for the first hundred years, until one guy was worried enough to write the pledge. So this argument still is not convincing at all for me.
Yes, which is why so many Americans confuse the symbol - like the flag - with the values it supposedly represents, by wanting to limit first amendment by forbidding flag burning, and getting in a tizzy over the flag, while ignoring real breaches of real constitutional freedoms.
As for customs and rituals - again, why children? Customs and rituals are for adults who understand and appreciate what’s going on. But maybe you can’t pressure them enough.
I don’t think Americans like it, rather, because they are drilled into this, they believe that open displays of “patriotism” are what’s required. And slacktivism like that is more comfortable than actually being a responsible democratic aware and active citzen of your state. Oh sorry, you’re a republic, not a democracy.
Oh no, I’m tired of getting shit on for saying the same things a few more enlightened Americans criticze themselves, and for being accused of having a stereotyped, clicheed unrealistic view of America, because I don’t personally know all 280 mio. Americans, or haven’t lived in all 50 states, so obviously I know nothing about the US at all.
My high school years are gettiing a little fuzzy, but I cannot remember saying the Pledge of Allegiance in Grades 10-12. (Upstate NY State).
I remember saying it 9th grade, because there was a couple of kids who made an issue of it. IIRC, It wasn’t that it was a “political or religious statement”, it was because they wanted to be a pain in the ass.
I plead alignment to the Flakes of the Untitled Snakes of a Merry Cow, and to the Republicans for which they scam, one nacho, underpants, divisible, with wizardry and jugs of wine for owls.
You have misunderstood me. To the extent that you can speak about an American ethnicity, it only began in the 17th or 18th century. That is why I call it a “new” nation, nothing to do with its pledge. Of course it has developed since then. One of the developments is its peculiar culture with regard to its flag.
It doesn’t matter that the pledge began as the work of one individual. It has since been adopted by influential portions of the community.
No argument.
I don’t think you understand culture. Of course children have customs and rituals. The issue here is that adults are forcing a specific ritual onto children. Adults do this in many areas: manners, religion, holidays, education itself. Most of these are more complex and balanced than the pledge, with more active willing participation from the children, and therefore not quite so problematic. But adults leading children in ritual behaviour is not unique to America.
Well, I’m an American and I don’t like it. I assume many others feel the same way. I have met quite a lot of people who seem to get a warm glow of pride from thinking about the flag or the military or what have you. I don’t get it, personally, but the burden is on you to prove it’s out of fear of censure rather than genuine, if culturally indoctrinated, feeling.
Please be fair. I never said any of this, and I resent being accused of it. I haven’t “given you shit,” either. You are free to criticize America and the Pledge all you like, and as I’ve said repeatedly I agree with your basic point. I’m just posting as someone who studies human cultural behaviour. The fact that I was raised in America gives me some added personal experience, but I’m not claiming any rhetorical authority.
No, there’s a separate Oath of Naturalization.
I’m a US Citizen, and I’m not really certain if the Pledge of Allegiance (as recited by schoolchildren) has any specific legal meaning - does it?