I would advise a friend who suggested that amputation of her leg was the best solutiion to an infected nail to see a podiatrist and a psychiatrist.
Let me introduce some more reality. Finding treatment for mental illness is not easy. I’ve been fortunate enough to have two very good therapists. Each time, finding them was damned hard.
catsix, you and I live in the same city. The therapist I found here was the sixth one I called. The sixth. The first five I called weren’t accepting new patients. I was lucky. My bouts of depression tend to be triggered by something external and there was nothing going on to trigger them. I knew I needed help, I was motivated to do so, and I had good friends backing me up. Even so, after being told for the third or fourth time, “Sorry. We’re not taking new patients” and asking for yet another referral, I was getting frustated and wanted to give up.
I found the other good therapist while I was living in Hawaii. About six months after I’d been hospitalized with very severe depression, my health insurance was running out and I was still in terrible shape and on an anti-depressant. It wasn’t safe for me not to be in therapy. I called every clinic I could find on the island of Oahu and told them my health insurance was running out, I was unemployed, and I needed treatment, telling them my history. Each time, I was asked if I was an alcoholic or a drug addict. Each time, I said “No.” Each time, I was told they couldn’t help me. So, I weaned myself off the antidepressant, found out the opposite of constipation is diarrhea, and on trying to find a job and keep body and soul together. Well, sure enough, I wound up suicidal one night. I found myself searching my apartment for anything remotely but surely lethal. I didn’t find anything, because I deliberately didn’t keep anything lethal in my apartment. My survival instincts must have kicked in or things must have eased up, because I called a suicide hotline and told them what was going on. They referred me to a free clinic nearby. I said I’d called that clinic and they’d already said they couldn’t help me because I wasn’t an alcoholic or a drug addict. The person on the hotline told me not to call, but go and tell them I wasn’t moving until they treated me. I owe that person my life. I showed up the next day with a good, thick book and some knitting. They saw me, and the therapist who treated me there is the reason I was able to put my life back together and build a new one.
Even if a person is motivated and wants help for mental illness, finding it can be incredibly difficult. Being turned down for help repeatedly as I was each time I sought help can just add to the feelings of despair and hopelessness which are part of depression. It’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking, “I can’t get help; I don’t deserve help; no one wants to help me.” Each time I sought help, I was turned down repeatedly over a few days. I was lucky enough to have good friends backing me up. Even so, they couldn’t produce a clinic in Hawaii which would treat me.
catsix, telling someone, especially a friend you think you can trust, that you’re suicidal is asking for help, although no doubt exceptions exist. Finding a good therapist isn’t as simple as getting out the yellow pages, picking up the phone and making a call, even if you know what’s going on and what you need. For someone who doesn’t, it’s even harder.
Do you have any idea what it’s like to be at a point where killing yourself looks logical? Two and a half years ago, when I was laid off with no IT job prospects in sight, that’s where I was. I’d reasoned myself into believing that my life benefitted no one and only caused those who loved me pain. I believed they’d be better off without me. Should I have died then? Suicide looked logical and sensible. Among other things, it would mean there’d be one less person competing for a job which someone else, perhaps someone with a family to support, might need more. I was, I believed, worthless, useless, and a waste of resources because I couldn’t find a job in my field.
As I said, I survived. During the past two years, I’ve seen a friend through his wife’s stroke, then given him a place to stay when she divorced him; I’ve met some wonderful new friends, sung Handel’s Messiah twice, not to mention a ton of glorious new music at a new church, and even fallen in love. I’m glad I stuck around. That doesn’t change the fact that 2 1/2 years ago suicide looked logical to my mind which was severely damaged by clinical depression.
Excuse me. This has been another long post. There is something I want to clear up, though.
Treatment for clinical depression doesn’t necessarily mean you have to take antidepressants. I have no desire to be on medication for the rest of my life, and I’m not. I was on various anti-depressants for about a year 12 years ago after I was hospitalized for severe depression in Hawaii. At the time, I think it was probably necessary, since I’d managed to get myself extremely imbalanced. When I was being treated for depression here a few years ago, I never was.
CJ
What about people who get no benefit from medication. You know, there are many people who simply don’t get better from drugs and/or therapy. Do you still insist they live when there is no improvement with care?
[unnecessary remark] catsix has friends? [/unnecessary remark]
Depression isn’t like other ailments. You can seem to function and keep your life going and all the while be drowning in darkness. With some degrees of depression, you can reason from A to B and even to C and D…but it’s all a facade. Wait long enough or go untreated (whether professionally, spiritually or eomtionally in some way) and depression will develope into something much more dangerous and deadly.
IMO, it is different to want to not treat CA or end stage emphysema or similiar. In those cases, the sufferer is usually aware that death is close, if not imminent. They ARE making a choice, an informed choice about their future.
To say that all suicides are making informed choices and should be left to their own devices is at best misguided and at worst amoral and criminal. Suicidal people suffer from tunnel vision, a devastating loss of perspective and a distnct lack of judgement–I would say all suicidal people here, with the exception of those who KNOW they have a terminal illness and want to avoid further pain. Most suicidal people are physically healthy–teens aren’t known for their chronic illnesses and debilitating conditions. They are known for their impulsiveness and emotionality.
In no way do I mean to diminish the pain of depression (or the pain of adolescence come to that)–but suicidal depression is temporary and treatable.
Siege -you are so right. GOOD help is incredibly hard to find. I had two terrible therapists in college (courtesy of the university counselling service–I would hope that things are much better now–this was 20 years ago) and one awful, and I mean awful, marriage counselor. It took many tries to find a therapist that I could trust etc. And for someone who is more critically ill than I was–finding the help is Mt Everest.
And catsix -your posts were NOT clear as to there being two different people that you knew that committed suicide.
I also disagree that it’s the insurance industry behind making suicide illegal. It has always been a crime throughout the history of man. If not, I want to see a cite.
I find myself agreeing with Whynot about it all. Yes- a case can be made for allowing suicide in the face of mental illness alone. But that call should only be made by a team of qualified people–not just the sufferer.
Suicide was not only legal but encouraged throughout much of Greece and Rome’s history. A person sentenced to death was sometimes offered the option of suicide to keep his lands and properties in the family - state execution meant your property went to the state. It was (and perhaps still is? I’m not sure) an honorable way to remove dishonor to yourself or, more importantly, your family, in many Asian cultures. Some Muslim extremists consider it a ticket into heaven if done the right way. So no, it has not always been a crime throughout the history of man.
I would WAG that it’s been a crime throughout much of Christian lands because of the emphasis on personal suffering being a good thing within that system.
However, didn’t we discuss elsewhere that attempting suicide is no longer a criminal offense anywhere in the US? Which makes the criminal aspect moot.
Or maybe people who have actually BEEN THERE and EXPERIENCED it.
catsix, you don’t seem to understand jackshit about mental illness. It’s not something that can be reasoned with. When I am in the throws of an obsession, for example, logic does not factor in. I can recognize WHY my fears may be illogical. I can even see the wisdom in what a person is telling me. But it doesn’t STOP the fears.
To me, my OCD was like being possessed by demons, that kept chasing me, convincing me that there was a problem. It was like having my soul boiled alive but not dying, and just constant agony. It’s taken a HUGE toll on my self-esteem and my self-confidence.
We have had threads on suicide, and whether or not it’s “selfish.” And I believe that it is-but not in the way we normally think of things being “selfish.” It’s selfish because you are unable to see anything beyond your own pain. Maybe you think the pain is worth letting friends and family grieve, but I don’t think so. It’s more than just grieving-those left behind will probably feel guilty and carry that for the rest of their lives. What about the medical professionals who have to treat suicides? The funeral directors who have to embalm them and make the arrangements. And the people who loved him who are left questioning-WHY and what could I have done? Some people not only never get over the suicide of a loved one, but they go on to become suicidal themselves.
Now, that is why, when someone threatens suicide, we MUST try to get them help. It’s not about refusing treatment-it’s about not being ABLE to get the help we need. People who are mentally ill CANNOT reason properly. The reason why being suicidal makes one unqualified to make that decision? Again, the human instinct for survival is deeply, deeply ingrained. We’ve seen the lengths people go to, just to stay alive, the horrors people have suffered just to survive, because it’s something that’s second nature. When we start trying to END our survival, it’s an automatic sign something is wrong.
We’re not talking physical ailments-then your BRAIN is still functioning. Mental illness means the very parts that are responsible for making rational decisions are impaired.
I agree that most suicidal people can feel better with drugs/therapy, but not all can. Would you agree that in those cases it should be perfectly legal for non-repsponsive depressives to take their own lives?
I think a depressed person can, in some instances, make a very clear decision to take his or her own life. If there’s no light at the end of the tunnel, what’s the point in playing it out?
If you will point out where I have insisted that anyone live I will be better able to respond.
Whynot -you are absolutely right and I don’t know where my head was when I posted that.
I guess I was thinking about the Church’s enlightened approach to suicide–so I must have meant recent Western Civilization (I had no Asian/Mid-Eastern history, period, in school so don’t know much about that, except for kamikaze pilots in WW2… 
).
Still, I doubt that suicide is something that any society is going to embrace as a way to avoid personal emotional pain.
It’s treatable–why wouldn’t we treat it? I read an article awhile back about the Golden Gate bridge and how it has no safety fence–it is the place for jumpers, apparently. The author interviewed a guy who survived a jump. He said that the minute his feet left the surface, he realized that he really only had one problem–and that was that he had jumped. How many others have gone too far and regretted it in the millisecond before life is snuffed out? We’ll never know.
I don’t understand the thought process of “let 'em go-it’s what they want”–do we give drunks more liquor? Go buy crack for an addict? What kind of message is that?
<scratches head>
Wasn’t talking to you specifically.
Yes, I responded to what you said by accident, but my post was there for anyone to respond to. Did you not understand the point I’m making? We’re talking about a depressed person’s ability to decide that life is no longer worth living. I’m saying that not all depressed people are incapable of making that decision. Do you agree? Disagree?
And I think it is selfish to say that your own grief or whatever is more important than the pain that person wishes to end. I don’t think it’s right to say to someone that they have to go on, living and suffering, so that I don’t have to suffer.
And that’s really what you just said. They should continue living, no matter their own pain, because their family will suffer. It’s selfish for them not to.
Well, it’s selfish of others to expect them to do that. If I expect someone to continue to suffer so that I don’t have to, that’s selfish of me.
[unnecessary remark]catsix has feelings?[/unnecessary remark]
I am a bit dubious about the “by accident” part, as you quoted me, and your question seemed to follow from my post; but nevertheless, I agree that not all depressed people are incapable of making that decision, if for no other reason than I am suspicious of any propositions that are contingent upon the word “all”. Is there a larger point?
The purpose of intervention is to help the suicidal person stop suffering.
If there’s no hope that they’ll ever get better, it probably is selfish to expect them to continue on just for you.
I do understand that, for a few people, life may truly be over for them. I suspect one of my now deceased maternal grandfather was like that. He didn’t commit suicide, but he stopped trying to live. He went to the doctor but wasn’t good about following his treatment and really didn’t put any effort into living. As sad as it made me, I can understand why he lost the will to live. His eyesight had gotten so bad he couldn’t read. His hearing was going so he couldn’t really hold down much of a conversation. His Parkinsons was so bad he couldn’t get around without assistance. His wife had died as had all his friends had died. He had no one around who was of an age with him–only us kids running about. and he couldn’t really interact with us much (plus, when he got very old and feeble, he scared some of the younger kids). His last pleasure in life was his golden retriever. He’d spend his days petting and brushing his dog. When the dog died, my grandfather shortly thereafter.
However, the situation in the OP is nothing like that. We don’t know about the person in the OP. Hell, the author of the OP couldn’t tell if the person was depressed, suicidal, seeking attention, or making a really bad joke. As Rilchiam said, the point of intervention is to try and alleviate the suffering. Many people do go on to have happy lives. Seige did. Sometimes, there may be nothing you can do, but is that true in so many of the cases that we should just dismiss suicidal talk and say “have at it, just please don’t leave a mess on the carpet.”
The comment re: suicidal people cannot see beyond their own pain does not refer to the pain that will be caused by their death.
It refers to the positive aspects of living and within that person’s life that are not seen by the suicidal person aka reasons to live. Yes, that may include other people’s love and concern.
Maybe not, though-it would depend on the individual.
Guin -I don’t mean to put words in your mouth. That is my interpretation of the phrase “unable to see beyond their own pain.”
I do think that suicide is the ultimate selfish act, for that matter–it’s the biggest “fuck you” out there. It leaves a legacy of doubt, rage, and grief that is horrific to behold, and can last for generations. Yes, the sufferer may be out of his/her pain–but at what cost to those around him? Again, the sufferer cannot see beyond his own pain, so does not take into account the consequences of his/her actions on other people. Nor does the drunk driver, but we attempt to stop that-or shouldn’t we bother with that either? Heck, those people made a choice and it’s all about choice and personal responsibility.
And I believe it is unrealistic to think that is always possible, which is why I can’t support forced treatment.
I think what you’ve got there is a false dichotomy. I said I cannot abide forced treatment, not that I think there should be no treatment offered. If a person will not accept help that is offered, I don’t believe they should be forced. Where people have gone off the track on my belief is in what you just said.
You want to offer help? That’s fine by me. I just believe that if said help is refused, the offering party should accept ‘No’ as an answer.
But that’s not what Guin said. She said that they shouldn’t commit suicide because it makes people grieve and feel guilty and have doubts. I don’t consider that to be a positive. I consider it to be a guilt trip, and something that only adds to the suffering of someone who wants to die.
Which means you think that the person who wants to die should consider the grief of other people to be more important than the suffering they experience. I don’t agree with that.
Drunk driving is hardly relevant.
Really? Because you seem to be mighty against the OP making the call that he’s legally required to do. Are you against the reporting, or against “forced treatment”, because they are not the same thing.
Merely expressing suicidal ideation does not lead directly to involuntary commitment. The authorities (the police, in my case) still have to have a firm belief based on a certain level of evidence that you mean direct and immediate harm to yourself. Trust me when I say this, you can’t just say you want to die and they load you up in the ambulance/cruiser tootsweet. As a matter of fact, I had a therapist call the cops on me believing that I was in immediate danger. The Mexican standoff that ensued between me and the cops when they got to her office and discovered that *I *didn’t think I needed to be hospitalized… Well, it’s actually a funny story, if you like dark, dark humor. Anyway, there are several opportunities for someone during an emergency hold to choose whether or not to accept the help that’s being offered, let alone after they’re released. Unless it’s a severe, extraordinary occurence, it’s not like they’re going to give you Lexapro in a drip or make you talk.
And someone’s express desire to commit suicide can put others in danger (like the guy who put his truck on the traintracks, causing a major wreck, or the gal who jumps off a bridge and others dive in to save her, or suicide by cop, et cetera). Which I think society has every right to head off at all times.
Which, of course, anyone can ultimately do, as you well know. Frankly, it seems to me that you’re backing off of your earlier position, from being staunchly against mandated reporting to “only” being against forced treatment. I don’t think anyone here is saying that the good old days of Frances Farmer should be brought back.
While I do believe OP did the correct thing in reporting this, sometimes mental health authorities do overreact.
In 1966, my mother had to undergo surgery to remove a blood clot in her left arm. During the surgery, a nerve was damaged which left her paralyzed from the shoulder down. The doctors came in to inform her that her arm would be useless for the rest of her life.
She was about 31 at the time, a divorced mother of a 6-year old who made her living as a secretary. Needless to say, a one armed typist was not in high demand. Shortly after the doctors imparted this infomation, a nurse entered the room and in her professionally cheerful manner asked my mom: “How are we today, Mrs. W***?” Mom replied “I don’t know about you but I wish I was dead.”
I think a certain amount of depression is normal and understandable in a single mom who has just been informed she has lost her ability to make a living. The hospital’s response? She was moved to the psych floor. During her week in this ward, where she was not allowed to close the door to her room, she a) was physically assaulted by a female patient who decided Mom had stolen her husband; and b) had all of the nightgowns and bedrobes brought by her friends stolen by another patient. They were never returned.
It finally took my Mother’s three fireman brothers driving from Central Florida to Montgomery, Al. to have a "talk’ with the doctor to secure her release from the psych ward. My understanding was that the doctors office was on a high floor and had a window that opened. My uncles were NOT joking.
To end such a dismal tale on a brighter note, Mom eventually regained total use of her shoulder, elbow,wrist and thumb. Due to tendon atrophy, she never regained full use of her fingers. She was senior secretary to an 11th Circuit Court of Appeals judge until she retired.