When that pain is actually treatable? They say that “suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.” Depression and mental illness CAN be managed, catsix.
I don’t believe that it’s a “guilt trip”, because most of the time, the person is so beyond reasoning, he won’t BELIEVE that others will care if he lives or dies.
eleanorigby, you didn’t put words in my mouth-you summed my point up perfectly.
You may not think it’s rational for someone else to decide that ‘managed’ isn’t good enough and that ‘tolerable when drugged’ is not a life worth living, but it’s not up to you to choose for someone else.
Maybe your life is worth you living, with whatever medication you’re on or however it is you deal with your issues. You seem, however, unable to separate your own choice to manage your incurable illness with someone else’s equally valid choice to not live a life that is, at best, ‘managed’.
Then why does such a huge part of your argument boil down to you wanting that person to know that you will grieve and have doubts and feel guilt if they die? This ‘I know you’re suffering but if you end that, I will suffer and that’s just not right!’ argument bothers me.
There’s no way that’s based in any way on the well-being of someone else, it’s based only on a selfish desire to not have to feel pain yourself. It also seems as if the person who says it sees other people as accessories in their own life, and sees those people’s actions and desires only so far as it affects them.
catsix, kalhoun, you and I’ve hung around this message board for a good few years. Two and a half years ago, in the fall of 2002, would you say my life was worthless and hopeless and that I should be allowed to end it? That was the way I honestly felt. I believed that, because I was unemployed with little hope of finding employment in my field in the foreseeable future, certainly not before my umemployment benefits ran out, I was being a drain on society and, logically, there was no need for my continued existence. I did want to kill myself for that precise reason. By your logic, I should have died at at least 3 points in my life: In my early twenties when I was alone and living in Hawaii; when I was in my early thirties and moved back to my home city having abandoned my original field, and 2 1/2 years ago when I was out of work. I have attempted suicide and failed. I have genuinely not wanted to live and believed I was unworthy of life.
Look, you do know that someone suffering from anorexia can look at herself in a mirror and see herself as fat even when she’s really dangerously thin, right? Depression does something similar to the way a person thinks. Right now, sitting at my desk about to start the workday, I figure I’m a decent enough person with a number of reasons to hope and be happy. In the depths of depression, I can see no good in me and no hope in the future. I’m quite literally incapable of making a rational decision about whether I deserve to live or not.
When I was so depressed 2 1/2 years ago and considering killing myself to relieve society of the burden of me, my therapist asked me a good, pointed question. She asked me if I advocated killing homeless people because they didn’t contribute to society. I responded, “No!” in horror. She then asked me why I was willing to apply a standard to myself that I wouldn’t dream of applying to another human being.
And, on that note, off to work!
CJ
The point is about as large as it can be! If a person cannot be helped by medication, why would you even want him or her to continue suffering for the rest of their life?
I have to admit you have completely lost me. Did I not agree with you? Who in this thread has suggested that someone who is **beyond the help of treatment ** should be forced to suffer? Where have I ** said that I ** want such a thing? What does any of that have to do with the OP?
When in doubt, call for help. Refer to the mental health people. Better safe than sorry.
One other thing, now I’m on break. There is an extremely large difference between ‘tolerable when drugged’ and being treated for depression. Treatment for clinical depression does not automatically mean that one is put on antidepressants and, speaking solely as a layman, any psychologist who only treats depression with drugs should have his or her license pulled. Studies have shown repeatedly that the most effective way to treat depression is with a combination of drugs and therapy; the second time I was treated for depression, no drugs were used at all. During that time, I was suicidal at some points. Still, my psychotherapist’s opinion was that the best antidepressant for me would be getting a new job.
CJ
No…I don’t think your life was or is anywhere close to worthless. But that is not the point. The point is that while I thought you were a vibrant contributor both here and in your private life, you may have different expectations and standards that were not being met. You are the only one who can determine if the life you are living is worth it to YOU. As much as I enjoy your input around here, I would not take it upon myself to dictate what should make you feel worthy of life.
That is precisely my point. Personally, I would consider that a waste of talent and humanity, but you have set a different standard for yourself, and that is your right!. It is not up to me to define “life” for another person. Now, I’m not saying I wouldn’t try to talk someone out of suicide, and in your case, it appears drugs and therapy have helped you in the past. But if you were in a perpetual state of depression and pain, with no realistic hope of getting well, I certainly wouldn’t override your decision. I don’t believe that all depressed people are incapable of making an intelligent, thoughtful decision about something that they live with every day.
But you do have a track record of not only seeking help, but also of responding well to treatment. You have made progress over the years and have had long periods of mental and emotional health that have kept you going during your subsequent bouts with depression. You continue to have hope and continue to go on. That is your choice. But it is also your choice (and it can be an informed, thoughtful, logical choice) if you feel you’ve done all you can and want out. That’s all I’m saying.
Right. And it made sense to you! You responded to treatment. You are a happier, more fulfilled person because of it. Luckily, you are not one of the thousands who are unresponsive to drugs and therapy.
Evidently you are lost.
Well, fight ignorance. Lead me back to the path.
Catsix, you attributed the above to eleanorigby, but it was actually me who said it. The reason I was being flip is because you came in blasting the OP for doing nothing more than going to the proper authorities when he heard someone making suicidal comments, and I didn’t see what else he could do.
The OP made it clear he couldn’t determine the speaker’s mental state–to the extent he couldn’t even tell if he was joking. He wasn’t in a position to do much besides go to those better equipped to deal with the situation. If someone isn’t able to tell if the person is joking, making a bid for attention, crying out for help, or really serious, then they’re really not the proper person to offer assistance. They should take it to someone who is.
I happen to agree that forced treatment isn’t for everyone though I’d have to disagree with you that it’s not for anyone.
For example (and maybe this is why this topic hits me particularly hard), a friend of mine has a 15-year-old daughter who is making suicidal comments, and her parents are “forcing” her into treatment (which involves seeing a therapist, not sure about drugs) and keeping an eye on her. The poor kid was diagnosed with something that, while not fatal, is permanent and will keep her from doing some of the things she enjoys. She’s also getting hell from her peers at school (she was never all that well-adjusted socially to begin with and this adds fuel to the fire). You and may disagree, but I think that 15 is too young to decide that life isn’t worth living. Plus, she’s still in shock from the diagnosis, probably not the best time to make permanent decisions.
On the flip side, I mentioned that I understood why my grandfather gave up on life. While it made me very sad, I wouldn’t have supported forcing him to go on.
However, there’s a broad range of situations in between the girl I mentioned and my grandfather. Who knows where the person mentioned in the OP is? Certainly the OP couldn’t figure it out, so he took it to people who had a better chance of doing so. I don’t see what’s so wrong with that.
thanks, Maddy–I knew I hadn’t said the bit about the carpet (although I appreciated the snarky humorous tone of the remark), but I couldn’t find it!
Catsix-obviously yet another subject where your position it the only one that is right and just and good. How splendid to be you.
One reason the pain and grief of those left behind is continually mentioned is because of the emotional and psychological damage that suicide does to those left behind. I know of 3 girls whose Dad commited suicide–25 years after his brother commited suicide, and yes, their mother is still alive and has now lived thru two of her kids kill themselves. These girls are at very high risk for severe depression and suicide. Not a legacy most people want to hand down-YMMV.
I find it puzzling that one should only consider oneself when making decisions. That is why I brought up the drunk driver–he wants to get behind the wheel and go joyriding–whyever would we stop him? It is exactly the same as a suicidal person–neither can think straight, both are thinking only of themselves, and both are potentially lethal to others besides themselves.
Siege -I for one, being relatively new here, am very glad that people intervened and you are still here with us. I enjoy your posts very much and always learn something.
catsix, “drugged” is not what anti-depressants do to you. Once again, you have to throw your stupidity around like a primate does with its feces.
Disagreeing with you, which I do, does not mean that I think I’m the only person who is right and just and good. I disagree with you. As in, I don’t share your opinion. And you might note that despite the incredibly nasty things that have been said about me (such as that I have no friends and no feelings) or implied about me (that merely being around me makes people kill themselves), I have not responded in kind and started throwing nasty insults at the people I disagree with.
I’d say that’s evidence right there that I’m not the one who thinks they are the only right and good person.
It’s not the same. That person’s actions did not in any way put anyone in direct danger and couldn’t even be considered a direct cause of their death if they do some day commit suicide.
This may be hard for you to believe, but you’re not the only person in the world who takes them. I’ve never taken them myself, but I have had friends who did and described it as being drugged. One of them told me that anti-depressants in general did remove the really depressing shit from his life, but they also removed the really good feelings. It leveled him out to the point that he said he really didn’t feel anything at all.
He wasn’t forced to take anti-depressants, and eventually after trying various different ones, stopped them altogether because he didn’t find them worth it. Is that somehow invalid because you take them and you don’t feel ‘drugged’?
But you keep saying that her opinion is wrong. Like it has absolutely no merit, and people have no right to intervene when someone else is suicidal. You’re just using the “unique situation invalidates opponent’s entire argument” device.
Friend of catsix gets drunk, announces he’s about to drive home. Another friend of catsix (“FOC”) tries to intervene, take keys away, offers to drive first FOC home.
catsix: “How dare you interfere with his choice to drive! How dare you try to force him to be a passenger and get home alive! It’s his right to choose to drive drunk and kill himself!”
Second FOC: “But he could smash into someone else and kill them too!”
catsix: “So what? How dare they impose their selfish demand not to be killed upon his right to drive drunk? Why should he be required to give up his right to drive drunk just because they’re selfish enough to expect him to think about their pain and suffering rather than his own?”
CORRECTION: I meant, you’re acting as if people are completely out of line if they intervene when someone is suicidal.
How is that any different from her (and others) telling me that my opinion is totally wrong? Oh, right, I’m not calling my opponents as stupid as a poo-flinging monkey.
Nice straw man you’ve built there, but I never said anything on the topic of drunk drivers beyond my belief that they are not relevant to a discussion about someone whose only desire is to take their own life.
If you want to argue that there are methods of suicide that are dangerous to other people, well, you’d be right. However, that’s not the debate I’m having, and drunk driving has no bearing whatsoever on someone who commits suicide by taking forty secobarbitol and then putting a plastic bag over their head in their own home.
I’m acting as if people are completely out of line if their ‘intervention’ involves forcing someone into treatment of any kind, or involves thinking that every comment about suicide has to be taken 100% completely and totally as a credible threat. Forced medical treatment of any kind bothers me, as do zero tolerance policies since they usually indicate zero thought.
I don’t think your opinion is totally wrong. I think it hinges on treating extreme examples as the norm. So it would be wrong in most instances, and yet you’re insisting that it should be upheld in all instances, on the off chance that this extreme example applies.
I can’t think of any method of suicide that doesn’t affect other people. Someone has to find the body. Someone has to dispose of the body. Someone may have to clean up the area; there’s no completely “clean” method of suicide. If it happens in a house or apartment, there will probably be some difficulty in selling or re-renting it. It creates work for the police, the coroner, the insurance company, and possibly first-responders. Foul play may be suspected, and someone could be on the hook for a possible murder. Shall I go on?
And I think you’re way off base in assuming that anyone and everyone who makes a remark about suicide will be forced into devastating treatment against their will. And I take issue with your last sentence about zero thought. Siege and others in this thread have testified that their cries for help were ignored because it was easier for people not to think about what they’d said.
I brought this up way back on page 1 and all still all you can say is that it is not relevant, even after I asked you to demonstrate how that is so. Here is why it is relevant catsix. Address this please.
A person who is drunk and wants to drive his car off a cliff because he thinks it can fly is making a crucial life threatening decision when he is not in full possession of his faculties.
A person who is severely depressed and sees suicide as the only way out is making a crucial life threatening decision when he is not in possession of his faculties.
You seem to base your objection to suicide intervention on the right of the individual to choose for himself. That being the case, would you intervene in scenario #2? If so, why?