That’s not what I said. I said methods of suicide that are dangerous to other people, as in threatening their life and limb.
You’re arguing a point I didn’t make.
And you’re still ignoring the fact that they chose to look for treatment. It’s an entirely different issue, and it really has nothing to do with the belief that forced treatment is what I am opposed to. Arguing that I’m wrong to oppose forced treatment because there are people who sought it voluntarily and couldn’t find it isn’t much of a counter point to what I said.
That there are people who had difficulty finding voluntary treatment does not negate the belief that when forced treatment occurs, I believe it to be wrong. Or are you trying to say that because people have difficulty finding treatment when they want it, it’s evidence that there are no people who are treated against their will?
The same reason I don’t object to someone snorting cocaine themselves but I would have a major problem with them shoving powder up someone else’s nose.
Physical damage in one of those cases is typically limited (and can be entirely limited) to only the person who takes the action, where in the other case, physical damage can and often does occur to people who did not choose to take part in the action.
And before you jump on me and say that there are people who choose methods of suicide that are immediately and directly dangerous to the life and limb of others, I will state that I do not support such choices (e.g. parking the truck on the railroad tracks, suicide by cop, head on into a tractor trailer) because they are well beyond the scope of my belief that people may ‘treat their own bodies as they wish provided they are not causing direct physical harm to other people.’
So, drunk driving is not a valid comparison, because a drunk driver is violating that physical harm principle.
My example does not violate that principle. The drunk driver will only harm himself. Please focus on the “unable to reason effectively” aspect of my example. if it will make it easier, say the friend is drunk and wants to jump off the cliff, convinced he can fly. Would you intervene?
I still don’t see where catsix’s taking an extremely hard-assed opinion over not playing supreme arbiter over someone else’s life equates to hating her own twat. I need more homework.
While not being dismissive of your mother’s experience, I hope you realize that mental health law and practices have changed dramatically in the nearly forty years since this incident.
Bullshit. Your special circumstances hypothetical is so far removed from the reality of drunk driving that it’s not even valid.
Drunk drivers routinely maim and kill other people, directly, through their actions. That is not true of the overwhelming majority of suicides, and I’ve already stated that I condemn and deplore those who do attempt to (or succeed at) maiming and killing others in their suicide attempts.
Hypothetical: Your friend announces he wants to kill himself but doesn’t specify by what means. He has a car and there’s a nearby intersection where high-speed trains routinely pass. Tractor-trailers zoom by all the time on the highway near his home. He’s an aggressive driver and gets behind the wheel whenever he’s upset to “drive it off”. He’s had previous run-ins with The Law and is confrontational. He mumbles about how he’s sick of being ignored and dammit no one will ignore him when he dies.
But he doesn’t say how he’s planning to kill himself. He has a gun, he could try suicide by cop or just blow his own head off, leaving a nasty mess but no other bodies lying around.
Actually, I didn’t choose to seek help the first time I was treated for mental illness. I was nearly catatonic and almost completely unresponsive. I did what my friends told me to do. The only things I chose to do were attempt to throw myself out of a moving car twice on the highway and make a try for a police officer’s gun. I vaguely remember trying to throw myself out of the car; I don’t remember trying for the gun. I only found out about that a week later when I noticed a bruise on my arm. My fiance put it there when he stopped me. It was my fiance and two good friends who chose to drive me first to the emergency room, then to a hospital. The first time around, I didn’t choose to look for treatment; very good friends saw to it that I got the help I’d refused to seek out for myself because I didn’t believe I could be help, could find help, or deserved to be helped. catsix, please don’t use me as an example of someone who sought out help independently. I didn’t. It’s also for this very reason that I’m very glad you’re not my friend. From what you’ve said in this thread, you wouldn’t have intervened and chances are I would have died.
Kalhoun, I’m a crazy Christian. I’ve been known to believe all kinds of ridiculous things, some before breakfast. I’d be willing to believe that suicide may be the best available option for someone who doesn’t respond to therapy, medication, or any combination of the two. It’s just that, because of my own history, it would take a lot to convince me of that. I’ve been without friends, without hope, and firmly convinced that treatment wouldn’t do me any good even if I could find it.
Maybe it’s just me, but I look at suicide as the last resort of a person who feels (rightly or not ) that he or she has no other option–not a choice made from free will. In that light, I think people should try to help or at least extend a hand to the person who is considering suicide.
Given that I’ve already said I wouldn’t support someone’s decision to act in a manner that is directly physically harmful to other people, I’d probably try to find out what that person was really planning to do, and then if it was something like that I’d try and convince them not to do things that hurt others. I might, depending upon how serious the friend seemed about carrying out a plan that could cause such harm to others, notify the police of what they were planning.
I don’t think I would include any kind of statements about them being suicidal, although I would definitely tell them that there are other options than death and I’d help them find those options if they wanted me to.
Mentioning suicide in front of someone else, especially a stranger, puts a burden on them. A horrible burden.
Yes, I believe that some people rationally choose suicide. Yes, I believe that people should have a “right” to kill themselves. No, I don’t believe that anyone should ignore suicidal comments. If we argue that the person is responsible enough to kill themselves, they are responsible enough to be held responsible for their comments.
Just a comment about another aspect of this thread: I’ve had a lot of suicides in my life, some close. I hope people don’t genuinely believe that’s my fault.
You are just absoulutely going to avoid the issue, aren’t you. I am beginning to think that you realize you hold an untenable position and are loathe to admit it.
Where here do you see anything about drunk driving? Where here do you see anything about harming others? What here do you see a special circumstances hypothetical? I’ll make it easier. Your drunk friend wants to jump into the hotel swimming pool from 5 flights up. This kind of thing happens every year and is usually fatal, but with little or no danger to bystanders. Say it is 2AM and the pool and surrounding area are uninhabited. Surely this scenario is valid and common enough to satisfy even you. Would you intervene or would you stand by and let him kill himself?
I would point out the stupidity of such an action. However, jumping off a balcony into a pool intending to live but be cool is not exactly intending to kill yourself. Are you suggesting that those are deliberate efforts at making oneself dead?
Not at all and therein lies my point. I am trying to differentiate between a suicide attempt, and a foolish act by a person not in his right mind that will almost certainly lead to death. Your friend mistakenly thinks that there is little danger in the jump, but you know that he is drunk and not reasoning intelligently. Attempts to dissuade him fail, but you are capable of restraining him physically, assuring him that if,when he sobers up, he still wants to make the attempt, you will do nothing to interfere. Do you stop him or not?
I don’t know. I doubt I could actually physically stop him if he was that determined to jump off the balcony into the pool, and I’d probably end up getting dragged over or injured in the process.
I think I might try to diffuse the situation by telling him there’s more beer in the cooler if we just take the elevator down he can have some.
Sorry, not good enough. He is determined to jump. It’s given that he can not be diverted by beer, shiny objects, or persuasion. (Although I find it interesting that your solution to a friend who is so drunk he thinks a five flight swan dive is a good idea is to give him more beer.) It’s given that you are able to restrain him. If you need to, postulate a few like minded friends to help you. Do you stop him or not?
You going to keep changing the rules of the scene until you get an answer you want?
Fuck that.
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(Although I find it interesting that your solution to a friend who is so drunk he thinks a five flight swan dive is a good idea is to give him more beer.)
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What makes you think I would be telling the truth to my drunken friend?
Oh, I see you are going to keep changing the scenario until you get the answer you want. Uh, I’m done tap dancing for you.
I’m not changing anything. You are (apparently) stalling by raising pointless objections.
Both of the conditions you object to were in my original post, so it seems that your objections are just a smokescreen, but if you like you can make up any scenario you want, as long as it satisfies these conditions:
You have a friend.
Your friend states his intention to engage in activity that will result in his death.
This activity is not a suicide attempt, just dangerous behavior.
Due to diminished capacity, he is unable to understand that he is putting his life in danger.
It is in your power to stop him.
Hmmm…is the poo flinging monkey suicidal?
You have stated that you would intervene for the drunk friend–even if it is to make him more drunk. Indirectly, you are stating that you would act to either stall or prevent your friend from harming himself in this way. So, you would intervene, if you are on the scene. So what if you’re not? Why can’t someone else intervene?
How is that different from someone talking down a jumper or taking the gun away?
And why does only physical harm matter? What kind of value system is that? Because these three girls I mentioned earlier have not suffered physical harm, it doesn’t count? Who do you think found the body? How is that not harmful to children or anyone?
You have an opinion, catsix and that’s fine with me. What I am questioning is your reasoning process to arrive at that opinion.
I’d be willing to believe that suicide may be the best available option for someone who doesn’t respond to therapy, medication, or any combination of the two. It’s just that, because of my own history, it would take a lot to convince me of that. I’ve been without friends, without hope, and firmly convinced that treatment wouldn’t do me any good even if I could find it.