It seems to me it’s be known for quite some time (decades) and becoming even more clear in the last 10 years so, that getting an advanced degree in the liberal arts often doesn’t guarantee you anything in the way of marketable job skills or employment opportunities, especially in your field of expertise.
Other than teaching what is the practical necessity or utility for a PHD in the liberal arts for any non-academic related line of work? I ask because it seems there are vastly more liberal arts PHDs minted than there are academic slots to absorb them. Is getting an advanced liberal arts degree simply a self indulgent decision to avoid entering the real world work force?
I wouldn’t say it’s a self-indulgent decision, but I would say it’s a little bit unrealistic if your goal is to have some kind of paying career that’s at least somewhat related to your studies at the end of your four years.
Funnily enough, according to Wikipedia, law is technically part of the humanities (and, if you want to get nitpicky, neither is any English study specifically not about literature, like creative writing).
What I don’t get is why do people always say ‘‘other than teaching, there’s no reason to get advanced degree X.’’ Teaching is a legitimate profession, no? What’s wrong with getting an advanced degree in order, to, you know, teach?
Nothing, but apparently there are a lot more PhDs in these fields than there are teaching positions. So either some folks are getting them for other reasons, or they have a misconception of what the job market is like.
I think it’s more a statement that, if you don’t want to teach, then it isn’t worthwhile. If you do want to teach, then go ahead! There’s nothing wrong with being a teacher, and there is a demand for good ones, but many people can’t (or shouldn’t!) teach, and so beyond that, someone with an advanced degree in X will have very limited career options.
Finding a job with an advanced (PhD) degree in math or science is no picnic either. I have heard from many people to stop at the bachelor level in science. The masters offers little/nothing over the BS, and the PhD overqualifies you.
I think a lot of people in both science and the humanities get PhDs and want to teach, then find the track is pretty much shut, so the private sector has a glut of people with PhDs as a result.
However, if you are doing a PhD because you love a subject and want to contribute to researching it, have at it. However I wouldn’t wait for a great job when you get out.
As far as avoiding the workforce, a PhD is going to be more stressful, require more hours and be more difficult than working. I only did a B.S. degree, but when I graduated I found work was far less stressful than school. I once told an ex-classmate who went to a professional school after her BS that my stress levels went to 0 after I graduated college and got a job, my bachelors degree was far more stressful than working. And the PhD is even harder. I doubt many people get a PhD to avoid the stress, long hours and uncertainty of the work world.
Doubt that your statement of ‘anything in the way of marketable job skills’ is correct. The skills you get from PhD studies in the humanities are significant - Serious scholarship requires intellectual, analytical and creative thinking, the type of approach that is transferable across the board in the job market. That seems completely obvious.
A problem, though, is how long it takes to acquire these qualities. 8 years (for example) is such a ridiculously long haul - it may be hard to think about your skills and place them in context of a corporate America-workplace when you’ve spent the last decade in a humanities school.
Yeah, the length of American PhDs is insane. Once you embark on a PhD, you’re committed to becoming a member of faculty, as you’ve just lost a decade in marketable job skills when compared to your peer group.
I’m honestly puzzled on why it takes so long to get a doctorate in America. What are you doing in all that time?
Our education tends to be a lot more holistic than European education; most Americans are not put on a career track at any point during secondary or university education unless they attend a technical university and sometimes even then. We spend time taking courses in disciplines not related to our degree as distributional requirements. The emphasis is on having a common knowledge base for all American academics to draw on and a wide range of information and skills. That’s why our undergraduate degree programs are almost always 4-year programs.
I don’t know to what degree this is or is not true in various parts of Europe but a lot of Americans work during the process of earning an advanced degree. Sometimes this is teaching assistantships or teaching intro-level courses; sometimes Americans like to take time off between undergraduate degrees and master’s/Ph. D to get work experience. We also spend a lot of time on our doctoral theses but I bet that’s the same in Europe.
That sort of creates an infinite loop doesn’t it? You get a PhD in humanities to teach people to get PhDs in humanities. Eventually there is going to be too many people with them and not enough students, and by “eventually” I mean right now.
The vast majority of humanities Ph.D.s who go into teaching will be instructing undergrads. And mostly bored undergrads who are there to get their required 101’s out of the way.
But I do think there is a glut of people with advanced degrees out there (and bachelor’s degrees as well.) The whole “everybody must go to college!” schtick has done more harm than good. It used to be that if you were smart, you could get a respectable (if not glamorous) job right out of high school, and college was seen as a choice, not a necessity. Now, huge numbers of employers won’t even consider people without an undergrad degree for even menial, trivial positions. It’s sad. A lot of people are racking up huge student loan burdens to spend an extra four years getting the 21st-century version of a high school diploma.
I consider myself very fortunate in that, after my brief failed experiment in higher education, I was able to get a white-collar job that fit with my zealously self-taught skills, and I’ve been very successful. Ten years later, I am finally returning to finish my BS part-time, only because what I really want to do is pursue master’s level study in my field. (But I have absolutely no intention getting a doctorate. I don’t have any desire to do a huge amount of research, for one, and a Ph.D. wouldn’t do me any good in the private sector.)
Rather than pouring even more money into universities and colleges, I’d like to see public policy in this country shift some emphasis back towards vocational and technical training. Tradesmen are becoming a dying breed in this country.
You know, I was seriously considering getting a Ph.D. in either sociology and social policy or social welfare. I have the academic ability and I love research and teaching.
Ultrafilter’s links are pretty sobering though. I know my field is social science and not humanities, but I think the principle is the same. I have long held the value of the ‘‘Life of the Mind’’ in high esteem, but the longer I hang out around academics, the more I get the sense it’s kind of bullshit. It’s more like ‘‘The Life of Politics and Crippling Financial Insecurity.’’
And since my husband is a Ph.D. student in clinical psychology, I’m under no delusions about the kind of work such a thing entails. He’s not exactly the most laid back and fulfilled person nowadays. At least not during those rare times I see him. In fact I can predict at least once a semester he will sit down next to me and start weeping uncontrollably. I weep enough as a Master’s student as it is.
Essentially what it boils down to is, do I want to spend another five years of my life busting my ass to wind up with a job that might pay even less than I would get as a social worker? I’m already looking at $100k of debt for my Master’s degree.
I decided to take my chances with the MSW. Fortunately a Master of Social work, while not immensely lucrative, is one of most flexible and employable degrees out there. There are all sorts of fun shit I can do with this thing, like run non-profits and build community capacity and shape social policy. Not only that, but a lot of MSWs teach and do research.
So maybe this is the best decision I ever made, and I should probably think before pursuing what is essentially an expensive gold star for achievement.
We’re also expected to help out with teaching, marking exams, coursework, doing transferable skills courses, attend summer schools etc. Thesis writing is usually saved up for the last six months of the degree.
Oops, you’re right - my skim-reading had “advanced degree” as any university degree. I think my point still stand, though - just substitute six or eight or ten years for four.
People have the right to complain about whatever the hell they want. I don’t see how the OP’s thread is even remotely questionable.
Just like you have the right to judge these people as being inferior. It’s pretty shitty though to see someone in a bad situation, and your first thought is that they probably deserve it.
People can certainly complain all they want, however, I think it’s a valid (and possibly instructive) line of inquiry to ask if these attitudes and the expectations that led to these attitudes are reasonable. People bitching about scenarios where they passed a dozen red flags warning them of the dangers ahead have (IMO) less right to complain than scenarios where people were misled.
These people have exactly the same right to complain as B.A. holders have to complain about incompetents with M.A.s, M.S.s, and Ph. D.s getting promoted over their own heads. That is, none. It’s their own damn fault.
