It’s a short walk from the town putting up a silly ornament, to the 10 Commandments being hung up in every classroom, to mandatory bible classes for all K-12 students. It’s also a walk that many many people in this country would happily make if other people didn’t force them to stop at silly ornaments.
I don’t know so much if it’s a branding issue, so much as it’s a sincerity issue.
I’ve never heard of a Satanist who actually believes in the whole Judeo-Christian theological constellation, and who chose Satan and actually fervently believes in and worships Satan. Except maybe
Instead, they’re almost always either angry/rebellious teens or snarky adults trying to poke organized Christian religion in the eye by doing publicity stunts like Baphomet statues at the courthouse or handing out Satanic tracts on the street corner, etc…
So they come across as dabblers and insincere dorks trying to shock people.
Kimstu, thank you for taking the time to patiently explain the foundational error in Beck’s arguments, altho your efforts have not yet seemed to reach her.
Why are they the angry ones, and not the Christians poking all non-Christians in the eye by doing publicity stunts like setting up idols depicting their deity being born and other idols depicting their deity gruesomely and graphically tortured to death?
That’s not what the Satanic Temple is about. This is more indication of their branding issues, confusing the Satanic Temple (who wants the US to actually follow its ideals and keep religion out of the public space) with satanists who actually worship or at least believe in god and satan.
The Satanic Temple that this thread is about is not about belief at all, it’s about showing the ridiculousness of religious excuses about ceremonial deism and other bullshit that brings religion and government together, and it does that by using an extreme, but equally plausible, religious figure and trying to show bible thumpers their hypocrasies.
Did you not get that I was talking about you in that post?
I’ve been an atheist for 66 years now. For my first 45 years of life I sat back and kept quiet. I’m a live and let live kinda guy. Then, the religious folks began taking potshots at my people. Over time I’ve become angry, but it has been purely in response to the god followers’ provocation.
That may well be, or maybe you pass some on the street every day. Just saying that Satanism and Gnosticism are “real” religions (as are Manichaeism, Mandaeism, Rastafari, Zoroastrianism, Druidism, you name it). “Weird” Gnostic beliefs are, of course, condemned as super-heretical by the Catholic Church, as is religious indifference.
But, not the kind of satanism that this thread is about, hence the branding issue.
Like I said. Two way street.
I totally understand what @Kimstu said.
I know the difference between a government and a private entity.
I don’t think you’re gonna push Christianity out so easily.
I don’t want it taught in schools, or prayers in the classroom. I don’t see anything wrong in schools teaching some kinda social acceptance and maybe general how to be a good citizen.(No, I don’t know how this could work). Kids need some type of moral compass. They are not getting it in this world. They are flailing around with no guidance. Parents should do it. So many don’t.
If you personally want to worship Satan, use it as your guiding principles, go for it. I’ll not try and stop you.
If you want to worship frogs, it’s fine.
Jesus.
Crystals.
AI.
Sham ba la.
It’s all the same. You have to choose.
I choose to not believe in these things. Any of them. I find that there’s not anything out there that’s gonna help in a real way in the real world.
I’ve read each and every post. I do understand how seeing something so against your personal beliefs can be difficult. But it will not change the fact that the founding Fathers built this country on Christianity. It’s gonna be hard to change that after this amount of time.
Screaming injustice to me isn’t gonna change it.
Going nuts about a nativity scene on a court house lawn will get you ridiculed.
It’s ingrained that Christmas is a thing. Any thinking adult knows Christmas is commercialized and just a holiday for parties, over drinking, gifts and decorations, kids . But it’s how we are. You’re not gonna be able to get that thinking out of people’s heads. Easily.
Finally. When you get close to death a person will search for something to hold on to. At least I have. It eases you. It prepares you. It gives you comfort.
I have a tattered blue t-shirt that I can’t wear anymore. Anytime I need something that gives me peace I hang on to it like a baby blanket. It confuses everyone as to why. They care about me and just let me get my comfort where I can. Because that’s what nice people do.
There’s no simple, easy way to go off this place.
And there’s no reason to make it hard for someone else.
Ya got a cite for that? Last I checked, most of the FF were deists.
That’s definitely a thing you said. But it’s not a thing you’re doing. Your posts in here have been 100%, “Your problem doesn’t matter, you should care about my problem instead.” That’s not a two way street, that’s you dismissing other people’s concerns while demanding that they cater to your concerns.
And why should anyone extend you the courtesy of caring about your issue, when you don’t extend the same courtesy to anyone esle?
For a cite, pull out a dollar bill. Those words are on there.
I care about everyone. Always have. I overcare, I worry. I feel sorrow and joy for people when it applies. I have donated lots of time and money to help people in my life. I have to say I’ve probably helped more dogs and cats. By extension that helps people, I suppose. I’ve raised my kids to be giving of their time and if they ever get any, maybe money. I hope they pass it to their kids.
I’m not asking for anything. I’m just stating my truth. Yours may be different. In fact I know it is. This is why I say it’s a two way street. There are two lanes.
I promise to stay in mine.
And it’s a lie! I’ll sometimes take a stack of cash and use a Sharpie to cover up the lie.
I was at a school board meeting recently. They were debating whether to allow religious chaplains to take on some of the duties currently performed by school counselors.
Lots of parents testified at the meeting, bringing up First Amendment issues and potential legal snafus that the school district might be exposing themselves to.
A Pastafarian prayed to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and held up a big sign that said “we want to indoctrinate your kids too.”
And a minister from the local Satanic Temple offered to provide chaplains from her Satanic congregation.
Even though the Satanists don’t believe in Satan, the religious parents and school board members do. The religion is quite tame. It’s based on compassion, rationality, and anti-authoritarianism. If a Church of Compassion and Rationality offered their services, no one would notice. But if the same church is called The Satanic Temple, then you start to hear Christians insist on needing separation of church and state.
“Annuit coeptis.” Be careful whom you whisper that to.
@kayaker is clearly not one of us, for example
Yeah, who on the board ruled that this was a legitimate topic even to table for discussion?
In France it’s illegal to [openly] wear a cross (or a pentagram or Star of David or Swastika…) in school; people would flip out if someone tried to display one on a wall.
I call the local Baptists, Junior satanic. They were at every school board meeting with their signs and spit and hell fire coming from their mouths. Barely able to keep from cussing like sailors. It was just ugly.
(Not to disparage normal people of the Baptist faith, this is the Baptist belt. There’s some real crazies here.)
I don’t have any real experience with Satanists. Why do they call themselves Satanists if they don’t believe or worship Satan. Here’s their branding problem, right there
Wasn’t added to the money until 1955, which was 119 years after the last Founding Father died.
This wasn’t you?
Sounds like an “ask” to me.
And again, why should anyone care about your issue, when you don’t care about their issue? Where’s that two-way street you keep talking about?
So yeah, poking organized religion in the eye by actively pissing them off, in the case of the Satanic Temple.
And I suspect 99.99% of people don’t draw a distinction or know there’s even a distinction between actual Satan-worshippers and the Satanic Temple. The assumption is that they’re one and the same.
I’ll amend my previous statement- it’s a branding issue brought on by a lack of sincerity. I feel like real Satanists would be something different than the Satanic Temple, and the Satanic Temple screws up their message and stunts by using the Satanic branding. The Pastafarians are essentially doing the same thing, but in a way that doesn’t try and ironically co-opt elements of Christianity.
Still, while there’s room for pointing out the hypocrisy in organized religion, I suspect that snarky mockery and/or pretending to be in league with the big bad is not the way to win hearts and minds and the Satanic Temple and Pastafarians both tend to offend as much as they educate, because most people aren’t able to separate the mockery of the hypocritical stuff from mockery of faith in general, and of their personal faith specifically.
Thinking of the devout people I know, the response to an honest-to-God Satanist would be one of extreme distrust and a little fear, and a sort of “kill it with fire” notion, without necessarily personally angering anyone- it would be emotional like you’d treat a rabid dog. But people who approach religion in a rather mocking way like Pastafarians and Satanic Temple people would probably be more directly angering- the people I know would probably pick up on the mockery and take it very personally- both for mocking them, and for mocking their religion by dressing up their nonsense as a religion of its own.