Indeed. But you do what you have to, and if you have to choose between revealing yourself, or losing the shot… Well, let’s just say that I’m glad the skipper gets paid to make that particular call.
Those drills are a false sense of security if you’re talking US Sub Launched torpedos. In a normal firing scenario you name one ship that can out maneuver an ADCAP.
There are two kinds of ships in the world - Submarines, and targets. 
Seriously, though, there are darn few vessels of any nature that can outmaneuver a modern torpedo. This is why decoys and stealthing systems were, and continue to be, developed. Sure, there are some spoofing manuevers, but those are acts of desperation, not reliable defenses; The require absolutely perfect timing and absolutely optimum conditions to work. Doens’t mean you shouldn’t practice doing them, but keep current on your swimming quals, anyway.
Is that the wire guided torpedo? I don’t know enough about torpedoes specifically to say that manuevering would help as much as decoys and stuff…
I was on the USS Ranger, and I watched an exercise were the ships company winched a decoy object over the fantail. I assume that this was a decoy that made “ship noises”. It was a little larger than the size of a couch, teardrop shaped. Are these effective at all?
Wow…we’re way off topic!
So, Navy “shooting solutions”…no.
All US Sub Launched torpedos are wire guided.
I seriously doubt that was a torpedo decoy…maybe a dipping sonar?
Possibly it was an AN/SLQ-25 “nixie” towed decoy. or possibly a towed sonar, or if it was fairly recently, it might have been an SQL-25B, which is both decoy and towed array.
I don’t think anyone had any illusions that in normal circumstances, a Mark 48 was gonna make a mess of our boat (let alone an ADCAP, which came out just as I was going reserve). Nonetheless, we a) didn’t expect USN boats (or anyone else who mounts them) to be shooting at us, b) things can go wrong with even the most modern fish, and c) it’s better than just sitting there waiting for the fish to poke a hole in your can.
Nasty as an ADCAP is, there are worse out there, and they came from a nation that was decidedly at odds with yours (and mine). Some of those torpedoes (going back some years now) are simply fearsome.
That’s the best argument possible for doing the drills; doing something, anything is better than sitting on it and awaiting fate.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound nearly as arrogant as I might’ve. I just couldn’t tell from what you wrote if you were taking a guess, or if you had personal experience with torpedoes, so my question was genuine curiosity rather than arrogance.
I’m not an expert myself, I’ve just read a lot about submarine operations (fiction and non-fiction) years ago.
No, I know that the MK 48 ADCAP tops out at over 50 knots. It’s just my impression that the speed is variable and controlled by the sub, and standard procedure is not to launch the torpedo and immediately go to maximum speed. If a target was 5 miles out they might try running the torpedo in low speed mode for 4 of those miles, and then turn on the internal guidance and fire it up to top speed for the last part of the trip, giving the torpedo a reasonable chance of being undetected up until this point. Is that way off?
No offense taken at all SenorBeef. You would be amazed, or maybe you wouldnt, at how accurate some of those books can really be.
These weapons do indeed have multiple preset speeds, though they aren’t variable. Also, there are many standard engagement practices when it comes to submarine warfare but the most important tactic a submarine commander has is non standard tactics…if that makes any sense. Submarine commanders have a tradition of non traditional tactics. So are you way off? Absolutely not. It was only your torpedo operations that were in question but most of that is technically classified so how could you know?
Good points. Plus, Im mixing my scenarios. :smack:
I’m a little confused as to how I can be partially wrong. If sneaking a torpedo a lot of the distance to a target is possible, either the torpedo has to run at slow speed, or it can run at medium to high speed a lot more quietly than I suspect. I know the Russian passive sonar isn’t nearly as advanced as ours, but I’d imagine they’d hear a 20+ knot torpedo coming from miles away.
OK…It all depends on your situation. If the conditions of the attack favor a more stealthy attack then precautions can be taken to MINIMIZE the amount of noise you are putting in the water. I wouldnt go so far as to say you can sneak a torpedo up on a submarine but you can make it so they dont counterdetect as quickly. So in that sense you are correct. Keep in mind the delay is a matter of minutes. Does that make more sense?
Here is a description of the ADCAP Mk 48 torpedo, though I cannot speak to its accuracy. If it is correct, the torpedo is switchable between 2 speeds – approx 40 knots and 55 knots. There is no information about whether that can be changed after launch.
My best guess is that the highest speed would be reserved for only those very fast ships or subs that would stand a chance of escape by a high-speed run directly away from a torpedo shot from a fairly long distance. I have read elsewhere that some subs can make 40 knots, and maybe a a few cruisers and destroyers get up to the mid to high 30s. So a low speed setting could result in the torp running out of juice during a long stern chase.
There are all kinds of circumstances when a targeted ship or sub might not hear a torp coming. If the target is traveling a relatively high speed – maybe above 20 knots or so – its sonar performance will be seriously deteriorated. Local storms may have he same effects, and other ships’ engines in the area may mask the sounds. Also, there layers of water in the ocean caused by differences in temperature and/or salinity that can drastically change how sound travels through these layers, and weaken (or strengthen) sound traveling through their boundaries.
Most likely the biggest acoustical difference in a “stealthy” attack is the point at which the attacking submarine will cut loose the torpedo from direct control. Until that point, the attacking sub can provide guidance through its own passive sonar. Once the wire is cut, the torpedo’s on-board sonar goes active and becomes something of an beacon for its own presence. I have heard conflicting stories about whether the torpedo can guide itself though passive means. I would tend to doubt it because its own sonar performace would deteriorate at high speed, just like any other ship.
Please note the I have no personal military or naval weapon experience. My knowledge, for what it’s worth, is just odds and ends that I’ve collected by reading news stories and techno-thrillers for 40 years or so. I’m just a geeky weapons hobbyist.
Look…you have to realize that a lot of the capabilities of our weapons (and others for that matter) are classified. All I can say is that the information you gather from google will not be from the sources that have the facts. SO in light of this…
Paragraph1=wrong
Paragraph2=wrong
paragraph3=very very true
Paragraph4=wrong
and paragraph5= explains the problems inherent in paragraphs 1,2, and 4
Please explain what is incorrect, without of course revealing any classified information. I noted that I could not verify the data about the torpedo,
Why would a sub use the torpedo’s highest speed against a 15 knot freighter? Are you simply saying that the ship speeds I quoted are wrong?
Are you saying that it is more likely that a torpedo would be set to a slower speed against a highly capable warship?
The speeds of the torpedo arent necessarily changed to suit the target. Most are a component of the certain modes a torpedo goes through when its shot. They dont just run straight for the target in most cases. Like for example if the torpedo is in a search mode in will be running somewhat slower. Also, depending on what search mode its in, passive vs. active, the speeds will vary. These weapons are a lot more complicated than most people realize. Generally the torpedos are preset to perform a certain way and that way is almost totally autonomous. The wire is primarily used only in cases where the torpedo isnt wunning in the right direction but normally its on its own. The torpedo makes its own speed changes.
When you think about it…whats the point in running it slower when shooting a merchant?
I would think the point of a slower speed setting would be a substantially increased range. What would the point of a slower speed setting be for ANY target?
There isnt any! Thats what Im trying to tell you!