Their only strong suit is to cover their asses. It just so happens that these days CYA means sending people up the river even if the accusation is ridiculous. If permittimng horrific abuse was what CYA meant, they would do it, pls see the Weinsten Company.
“Ok, I understand he ejaculated into a potted plant, but come on, which middle aged married man has not done that? You are being unreasonable”.,
That’s not “attributing their discomfort to their gender”, but “being treated in a way they found uncomfortable and thinking that the reason they were treated that way was their gender”. They were attributing their discomfort to gender-based discrimination, not to their gender.
I have been surprised in the past, when discussing sexual harassment, that many women will admit that the very same behaviour that might be charming or seductive if an attractive man were to do it, would be creepy and disgusting if an older or unattractive man were to do the same.
On reflection though, it does make sense. When I flirt, I do have an awareness of the likelihood of this particular person being romantically interested in me, and if the likelihood is low, I’m going to proceed with caution. I’m not out to make anyone uncomfortable. And I agree it’s gross when you see guys in their 50s trying to hit on young girls and ignore all the signals.
Also of course there’s a gap between “creepy” and “harassment”; I just thought this was a relevant side-issue.
Yes, but when you boil that down to it’s basics - wanted sexual/flirtatious attention/behavior is okay, and unwanted sexual/flirtatious behavior/attention is not. That’s reasonable. It needs to stop when it’s not welcomed, and people need to use their words when it’s not welcomed, and pursuers need to use their brains even when the the pursued can’t/won’t use their words (particularly when there’s a power imbalance or risk or reprisal) and not take silence for consent/appreciation/willingness.
CollegeHumor: Wow, Everyone’s Flirting With Me
Sure, but I was trying to say something more specific (and failed…I probably shouldn’t have mentioned the old geezers as it distracted from my point).
What I mean for example: I know a guy who’s very handsome, and he often calls women he’s just met “gorgeous”, with a smile, and the vast majority seem to really like it*.
Meanwhile, if an old, fat, ugly guy went around calling women he’d just met gorgeous, a sizeable proportion would be made very uncomfortable by that interaction.
This was the kind of difference I meant, not what happens *after *it becomes obvious whether the woman likes or does not like the attention.
And I still think it makes sense… At some level we all have a rough idea of how attractive we are to others, and that does have to factor into the way we approach flirting.
I looked for, but couldn’t find, a vid somebody once sent me. It probably dates from around 2000.
It starts in a typical cube farm office with a late 20s female office worker at her station. Up walks Tom Brady the famous football player, or a darn good lookalike. He’s wearing a shirt and a jockstrap. He proceeds to chat her up, ask her out, etc. She’s eatin’ it up.
Scene cut to the same set-up; same woman in her cube. Now up walks your classic scrawny Dilbert nerd. He says “Hello” and she gasps, grabs her desk phone, and starts punching buttons. “Hello, harassment hotline …”
The vid’s a joke of course, but it rings true-ish to a lot of men.
Which loops back to the reasonable contentions above that “harassment” vs. not is largely, if not totally, in the eye of the recipient.
If society is trying to train a standardized level of behavior into the men, is there not a corresponding duty to train a standardized level of tolerance into the women? With the goal that everyone’s behavior always falls within everyone’s tolerance. If not, why not?
Clearly we’re a long way from the Platonic Ideal Form on this. If we could even agree on what that PIF is. And the perfect should not be used as the enemy of the good. We collectively have a problem and we’re collectively (most of us) groping (heh :)) slowly and fitfully towards solutions.
Well again I want to be clear that I’m on the side that believes the very same approach can be a misjudgement in one case, and normal flirting in another.
If it seems unfair, consider say, that if you’re a huge, mean-looking guy, you have to adjust and accept the reality that it’s easier for you to come across as threatening.
And likewise if you were a handsome 20-year old guy, but now a chubby 40-year old guy, I’m sorry you have to adjust to the new reality. You can’t routinely use the same openers with women that you could as a boyishly handsome guy.
Also, this is all a bit of a tangent. I don’t think any of the examples I was giving would be considered harassment. Harassment is when you’re ignoring repeated objections or discomfort, or you’re doing something that would be terrible for any guy to do (e.g. getting your wang out).
I once had a woman tenant who was beautiful in every way … she once thanked me for being the first landlord she’d ever had who didn’t try to rip her clothes off … it always amazed me that getting to be “the best landlord ever” only required not raping your female tenants … just amazing …
I don’t think there’s that many men who are sexual harassers, but it doesn’t take that many to make all women defensive … even if 99 out of a 100 comments are innocent, that 1 in a 100 leads to a brutal attack … most men aren’t sexual harassers, but their silence in this matter is part of the problem … any woman alone with a man has to be extremely careful, and that’s just wrong …
And there’s the rub. 5% (total WAG) of men have been wrecking it for (total WAG) 90% of the women. Who are now, quite reasonably, fighting back.
So now those 5% of assholes are *also *ruining it for the other 95% of men who see themselves as potential victims of a fully reasonable, but possibly mis-targeted, backlash.
ISTM you’ve missed much of the point of the thread.
If it’s flirting, and it is happening when either party is at work, it’s already out of bounds. There is no such thing as acceptable flirting in a workplace. Which extends to not only when both parties work there, but to cases like the flirter is a customer and the flirtee is a sales clerk, waitperson, etc.
Workplaces are not the only situation where flirting is *per se *out of bounds. But it is one where any flirting is always out of bounds.
Harrassment is also anything you (any you) do after the first objection. A situation raising “Repeated objections” is already not only out of bounds, but well out of bounds and rapidly heading deeper into the rough.
That’d be this one (after you get past the commercials…).
Not missed the point, I was discussing something of a side issue, and I made that clear in all of my posts. The question of “Why guy X can say something that guy Y cannot” often comes up in this context.
It’s nice to have simple, blanket rules, but this one goes too far IMO.
Is asking someone out unacceptable in the workplace?
If so, this seems to be implying all relationships initiated via work / working relationship are unethical (because if you can’t flirt in the workplace and you can’t ask someone out, there’s no way to initiate a romantic relationship).
Which in turn would imply a sizeable chunk of the population are in happy relationships started via someone doing something “out of bounds”.
The ellipses abuser is right; it is the rare awful experience that sticks in most humans’ minds and makes them cautious in future interactions. That’s an evolutionary trait that keeps us alive a little longer than if we’d ignored it.
And it’s awful that simply being a decent person is remarkable in certain situations; but imagine knowing that your ability to pay bills, feed your family or keep a roof over your head depended on ignoring someone who appears to be taking advantage of a power imbalance you’re on the low side of.
The one time I had a male landlord he was renovating the flat above mine and felt he could drop in to my flat when he felt the need. It was mostly to keep beer in my fridge and nose around in my stuff making unfunny jokes, b/c he was a sad old alcoholic who couldn’t drink in the home he shared w/ his GF, but I still didn’t like it and felt powerless to stop it. I was lucky enough to be able to move out quickly and sue him for my withheld security deposit b/c of my financial stability. A lot of people don’t have that privilege and have to tolerate worse. For my part, if I’m alone I wouldn’t rent from a man again b/c of him.
In my culture, young women are cold to all young men accept family or guys they are interested in. One of the reedeming features of getting old, fat and ugly in my culture is that young women assume you aren’t going to make a pass at them, and no longer automatically treat you like shit.
Apart from that, yes: flattery from someone you don’t respect is insulting, and when a young women is insulted by your flattery, it says something about her opinion of you and the power relationship between the two of you.
Oddly we were putting together a Sexual harrassment presentation. We had dozens of video clips. Some had identical dialoge but different players. We used each to present to a small sample to see which worked best.
One had a fat balding saleman ask the receptionist out to lunch. Most female respondants thought that could be sexual harrassment.
The identical script had a handsome delivery guy in tight brown shorts. Only a few females thought that was sexual harrassment.
I read about an intel agency (might have been the Stasi or perhaps the KGB) which discovered that honey traps against female targets were pretty easy to carry out. Against male ones, much more difficult.
They said that once they got past a woman’s suspicions (which was easy), it was plain sailing. On the other hand with men the more flirty and “nice”, an agent acted, the more suspicious the target became.
Which is why they preferred to go after female secretaries. As opposed to male aides.
In Spain it’s somewhat equivalent of the Southern US’s “honey”; friendly, not classy, and a filler for “your name would go here if I knew it but I don’t”. People do it regardless of gender, it’s not viewed as sexual so long as it’s said in a normal to cheerful tone.
That would be a direct function of how attractive the man thought himself. I’ve had coworkers who almost broke the speed of sound when approached by jineteras and one who couldn’t, wouldn’t believe the nice pretty girl had spent the night with him for their electronics (which she cleaned out) and their money (which also disappeared) rather than his charm (which was nonexistant but he were very pleased to have met himself). I say “their” posessions because she cleaned both him and his wingman/roomie.
Why would you try to convince of them of such a thing? Examine that impulse.
Speaking just to the last of nwh’s items, it amounts to:Complaint: My friends treat me like shit.
Advice: Get better friends.Which seems more likely to succeed than:Complaint: My friends treat me like shit.
Advice: Reeducate your current friends.The first two quickly get more problematic, as you say. Ultimately, each of us has a judgment to make: How much am I going to conform to the world as I find it and how much am I going to beat on the world to make it more like I wish it was? This question applies to every area of human interaction. And to a lot of interactions with machines, animals, and Nature.
So maybe, just maybe:Complaint: Every time I go drinking at the VFW, leering old guys hug me. Eeeww!
Advice: Stop going to the VFW.
is smarter (or at least more successful in the near term) than:
Complaint: Every time I go drinking at the VFW, leering old guys hug me. Eeeww!
Advice: Re-educate those nasty old men. Hit them if necessary to demonstrate your seriousness.
I agree it would be nicer if this whole problem didn’t exist. But given that it does ISTM the best approach is some mix of active resistance and active avoidance. YMMV of course. I have never met a happy person who practiced 100% of either of those responses to any social dilemma. Perhaps you have.